Official Luthiers Forum! :: View topic - Worst binding ledges ever

I built this one based on another jig I had seen before and it works like a charm. If you want to purchase the real deal then look it up at Canadian Luthier Supply. It's a great jig, simple to use and doesn't take up space in a small shop. But basically you mount the jig in a vice, I have a dedicated router for it otherwise mount it to your router too, and then holding the guitar in your hands you just rotated it around following the climb cut patterns of course.

jfmckenna wrote:

I like the arrow reminder on the jig--for as many years as I've used routers, I sometimes still have to ask myself which way the bit is turning. Sometimes, I still get it wrong. Call me slow...

Dave

For those who have the LMI version, could you describe the “micro adjust rub collar”. The website is very light on details. What is it adjusting? The depth or height of the channel. How does it work?

Thanks.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

I'm contemplating using a dovetail bit the next time I cut binding ledges. I sometimes find myself relieving the inside corner of the binding to get a better fit. If the bottom of the rout is undercut by the dovetail bit I think it might also make it easier to fine tune (with a file) those small depth discrepancies I sometimes get with a straight bit. The router would have to be firmly on the work before the bit contacted the body, and likewise the bit would have to be moved away before the router was lifted off of it. Otherwise oops_sign

I think I will practice on scrap first [:Y:]

Author:	banjopicks [ Sat Nov 28, 2020 2:42 pm ]
Post subject:	Worst binding ledges ever
I put one side on the back and was quickly wishing I'd done a better job.. It's time for one of those fancy ass router jigs. Looking for plans and best drawer slides or something better.

Author:	CarlD [ Sat Nov 28, 2020 3:31 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Worst binding ledges ever
Rick Micheletti has some plans on his luthiers cool tools website. John Hall sells one like it on blues creek guitars. I built a tower type based on a description by Lillian on anzlf.com, http://www.anzlf.com/viewtopic.php?f=1& ... it=binding. Here's a pic. Attachment: PICT0162.JPG Uses parts from 8020.net.

Author:	DanKirkland [ Sat Nov 28, 2020 4:22 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Worst binding ledges ever
I bought the Fleishman binding machine setup from John Hall. Best money ever spent. https://bluescreekguitars.com/product/f ... d-bit-set/ That setup with the cradle is invaluable to me in my building. The ability to isolate the instrument from the bench top prevents lots of accidents from happening like top dents etc... The setup is incredibly safe too as it's nearly impossible to completely lose all control when using it. I use the cradle on the benchtop when gluing in the binding too since it makes it so much easier to have it just a hair higher. For an idea of how much time and annoyance this thing saves me. I can cut the ledges for 1 ply binding in about 10 minutes with a climb cut using masking tape to prevent blowout/chips on the edges. If you want a purfling line cut just add another 10 minutes or so to measure/tape/change out bearings etc... It's really the best tool I own and I'm very pleased with it.

Author:	doncaparker [ Sat Nov 28, 2020 4:40 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Worst binding ledges ever
I have tried a number of different designs, and my favorite so far is the LMI binding machine. It shares some characteristics with the Fleishman machine: 1. It relies on rabetting bits with bearings of different sizes to get the right horizontal cutting depth. I strongly prefer this over the designs that have a vertical stop, or a set of barbell-like bearings, used in conjunction with a regular router bit. That barbell design relies on the user being able to keep the stop completely tangent to the cut at all times, and that is not easy for me to do. 2. It forces the router bit to stay 90 degrees vertical to the workbench, and allows the height to vary. 3 It puts the guitar in a cradle for presenting the guitar to the router (which is attached to the tower). One advantage the LMI tower has over the Fleishman design is that the LMI tower has a very nifty screw-on donut that can be adjusted very finely for vertical depth of cut. It is not cheap, but I'm a happy user of the LMI binding machine.

Author:	banjopicks [ Sat Nov 28, 2020 4:49 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Worst binding ledges ever
They all look fairly easy to build and for me, building is the best option. After I fix this mess and before I do another.

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Worst binding ledges ever http://w-ww.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10101&t=53713	Page 1 of 2

Author:	Pegasusguitars [ Sat Nov 28, 2020 5:00 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Worst binding ledges ever
I've had Fleishman style machines, shopmade ones, and several others over the years. I currently use the LMI one. The adjustable donut is really slick. Makes for extremely fine depth adjustments. It's one of the few true innovations to come along in years IMO. On the other hand, the sled they sell sucks. Sometimes they try to trick things out so much that the tool is a total hassle to use. I use the old fashioned cradle that you can find anywhere. Easy to make. John Hall at Blues Creek has them too

Author:	ballbanjos [ Sat Nov 28, 2020 5:08 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Worst binding ledges ever
I started off with one of the Blues Creek binding cutters/body carriers, and it worked well straight out of the box. But, I made some changes. I've used the Stew Mac and LMI stepped bearing binding cutters, and they were OK, but I had always used downcut spiral end mills with an adjustable "finger" for depth control when cutting binding channels on fingerboards, pegheads and the like. I like the fact that it's infinitely adjustable--you can sneak into a final fit easier than you can with the bearings, plus there's never the need to add just a little masking tape to the bearing to get the right depth of cut etc. Also, 1/4" endmills are a lot cheaper to replace than the rabbet/bearing type cutters, and produce a very high quality channel. So here's what I ended up with. The router moves in and out from the ball bearing guide with an adjustment knob that can barely be seen to the back of the router. You can see the 1/4 end mill barely sticking down (purfling cut). The tower type frame keeps the whole thing square to the body. I also added a spring to counter the weight of the router a bit.

Author:	meddlingfool [ Sat Nov 28, 2020 6:26 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Worst binding ledges ever
Here’s mine. Just HD drawer sliders and scrap wood. I use the ledge attachment on the jig itself so that I can just drop in a new router for each cut. One router for excess cut which cuts a .060 ledge just sort of .250 high, then my main binding cut at .070 x .250, then a top purfling router and a back purfling router. I usually use the same size purflings but if I want to do something different I just change out the bearings. The carriage bolt keeps the bit square. I found the donuts allowed too much a variation, so I have little tapered blocks that come right up the the edge of the bit glued to the router base. Aside from the fiddliness of getting the box aligned square in the cradle, it’s basically an idiot proof and efficient system which is very suitable for me... Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Author:	jfmckenna [ Sat Nov 28, 2020 6:54 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Worst binding ledges ever
I built this one based on another jig I had seen before and it works like a charm. If you want to purchase the real deal then look it up at Canadian Luthier Supply. It's a great jig, simple to use and doesn't take up space in a small shop. But basically you mount the jig in a vice, I have a dedicated router for it otherwise mount it to your router too, and then holding the guitar in your hands you just rotated it around following the climb cut patterns of course.

Author:	Freeman [ Sat Nov 28, 2020 7:17 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Worst binding ledges ever
I just bought the StewMac rig when I started doing carved topped guitars and never looked back.

Author:	ballbanjos [ Sat Nov 28, 2020 7:39 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Worst binding ledges ever
jfmckenna wrote: I built this one based on another jig I had seen before and it works like a charm. If you want to purchase the real deal then look it up at Canadian Luthier Supply. It's a great jig, simple to use and doesn't take up space in a small shop. But basically you mount the jig in a vice, I have a dedicated router for it otherwise mount it to your router too, and then holding the guitar in your hands you just rotated it around following the climb cut patterns of course. I like the arrow reminder on the jig--for as many years as I've used routers, I sometimes still have to ask myself which way the bit is turning. Sometimes, I still get it wrong. Call me slow... Dave

Author:	jfmckenna [ Sat Nov 28, 2020 8:20 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Worst binding ledges ever
ballbanjos wrote: jfmckenna wrote: I built this one based on another jig I had seen before and it works like a charm. If you want to purchase the real deal then look it up at Canadian Luthier Supply. It's a great jig, simple to use and doesn't take up space in a small shop. But basically you mount the jig in a vice, I have a dedicated router for it otherwise mount it to your router too, and then holding the guitar in your hands you just rotated it around following the climb cut patterns of course. I like the arrow reminder on the jig--for as many years as I've used routers, I sometimes still have to ask myself which way the bit is turning. Sometimes, I still get it wrong. Call me slow... Dave If I had an updated version of the pic I also taped to it the climbing cut strokes to take first too. Yeah reminders are good. Take the 'thinking' out of it and it operates more smoothly.

Author:	DennisK [ Sat Nov 28, 2020 8:55 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Worst binding ledges ever
ballbanjos wrote: I like the arrow reminder on the jig--for as many years as I've used routers, I sometimes still have to ask myself which way the bit is turning. Sometimes, I still get it wrong. Call me slow... Dave Yeah, I can usually figure it out with some effort, but I am prone to overthinking things. It always frustrates me when people say something turns clockwise without specifying which end of the axis you're looking from. Normally a router bit would be considered to turn clockwise, but clearly that arrow is counterclockwise. Or in the case of a circular object, saying "turn it to the right" without specifying what point on the circle should move to the right... for example on a car steering wheel, a right turn can be accomplished by moving the bottom of the wheel to the left.

Author:	Colin North [ Sun Nov 29, 2020 5:32 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Worst binding ledges ever
I use a shop made tower using ball bearing drawer slides and recycled bits'n pieces with a shop made cradle, Bosch Colt and SM bearing cutters. Uses a counterbalance to reduce laminate trimmer weight to around 3/4 lb on the body. Tower is held in a central end vise, cradle sits on plastic feet and slides around on a $1.50 offcut of melamine from DIY shop. Inexpensive and works really well, use a climbing cut all the way.

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Author:	Greg Maxwell [ Sun Nov 29, 2020 8:36 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Worst binding ledges ever
I also use the Blues Creek Fleishman rig. I replaced the original trim router with the Rigid, which is much easier to micro-adjust from the front-located adjustment thumb wheel. I also did some minor shimming to bring the cutter surface perfectly perpendicular to the bench. I greatly prefer a setup where the guitar is stationary and I move and control the router. Too many years in cabinetmaking, I guess. Anyway, the rig works wonderfully when carefully set up and test cuts are made to get the right bearing. I also seal the top, sides, and back with shellac which helps to get a clean cut. I climb cut the entire circumference and then make a clean-up cut the other way.

Author:	Ruby50 [ Sun Nov 29, 2020 10:12 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Worst binding ledges ever
I build just over 1 guitar a year, having finished #9 in 8 years. For my first I bought this hand held version of Dave's, and also Chris Ensor's. If I recall, it was from Steve Kovacik (sp?), and it was $35. It has worked flawlessly and I have never made a mistake with it. I have installed wide purflings such as pearl without a problem. The thin, flexible masonite takes the place of a donut. On the downside, it is a little tedious to adjust - it uses a 1/4" bit and you move the fence and change the router depth to match your binding. And I have to make a practice run to get the action down - you have to push down and in along the base - not difficult, but you have to be aware. If I ever change, it will be to make one like Dave's version of this simple jig, but this is ideal for the number of instruments I build Ed M

Author:	Clay S. [ Sun Nov 29, 2020 10:42 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Worst binding ledges ever
I'm contemplating using a dovetail bit the next time I cut binding ledges. I sometimes find myself relieving the inside corner of the binding to get a better fit. If the bottom of the rout is undercut by the dovetail bit I think it might also make it easier to fine tune (with a file) those small depth discrepancies I sometimes get with a straight bit. The router would have to be firmly on the work before the bit contacted the body, and likewise the bit would have to be moved away before the router was lifted off of it. Otherwise I think I will practice on scrap first

Author:	rlrhett [ Sun Nov 29, 2020 12:31 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Worst binding ledges ever
For those who have the LMI version, could you describe the “micro adjust rub collar”. The website is very light on details. What is it adjusting? The depth or height of the channel. How does it work? Thanks. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

Author:	bcombs510 [ Sun Nov 29, 2020 12:58 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Worst binding ledges ever
rlrhett wrote: For those who have the LMI version, could you describe the “micro adjust rub collar”. The website is very light on details. What is it adjusting? The depth or height of the channel. How does it work? Thanks. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro There is a little lever that flips back and as you unscrew / screw the donut there are detents that the lever clicks into. Each click goes up/down .003”. So you can dial in the depth without having to fiddle with the router base. I use the DW611 which already makes it easy to get close (compared to the colt) and then dial it in with the donut. Here’s a pic, hope it helps. Brad Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

Author:	bcombs510 [ Sun Nov 29, 2020 12:59 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Worst binding ledges ever
P.S. I need to vac under there. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

Author:	rlrhett [ Sun Nov 29, 2020 2:13 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Worst binding ledges ever
Ok. I see. It is a height adjustment, not a depth adjustment. Slick, but my Rigid laminate trimmer seems to do that well enough. I thought it was an ingenious way to dial in depth between bearings. I know I can use hacks like masking tape, but I thought they had come up with some slick solution.

Author:	doncaparker [ Sun Nov 29, 2020 2:24 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Worst binding ledges ever
In order to avoid confusion, I think of the LMI screw-on donut as a vertical depth of cut adjustment mechanism. After all, we are concerned about the depth of the cut in two dimensions. I like the bearings approach, because I feel I get more consistent horizontal depth of cut that way (as opposed to the adjustable guide approach). But the downside with the bearings approach is that, while the vertical depth of cut is infinitely adjustable, the horizontal depth of cut depends on what bearings you can buy, and how much tape you want to mess with, in between bearing sizes. I just accept that shortcoming and deal with it.

Author:	meddlingfool [ Sun Nov 29, 2020 3:43 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Worst binding ledges ever
I just thickness my bindings and purflings to match a bearing...I don’t need .073 or .078 bindings......070 is fine.

Author:	meddlingfool [ Sun Nov 29, 2020 3:44 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Worst binding ledges ever
Clay S. wrote: I'm contemplating using a dovetail bit the next time I cut binding ledges. I sometimes find myself relieving the inside corner of the binding to get a better fit. If the bottom of the rout is undercut by the dovetail bit I think it might also make it easier to fine tune (with a file) those small depth discrepancies I sometimes get with a straight bit. The router would have to be firmly on the work before the bit contacted the body, and likewise the bit would have to be moved away before the router was lifted off of it. Otherwise I think I will practice on scrap first I relieve the inside corner of the bindings as standard practice. Using a dovetail bit sounds like trouble...

Author:	rbuddy [ Sun Nov 29, 2020 3:54 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Worst binding ledges ever
On the other end of the binding ledge cutter spectrum. I made a two of these. Since I love making anything with my hands that takes some skill and light "engineering", I enjoyed making them as much as using them. Almost as much fun as making instruments. My bro-in-law and I both really like them. Since most woodworking tools work with non ferrous metal, it was a wood shop project. Most all the parts swivel on bearings so it works with minimal resistance. A spring connects the router end to a hook in the ceiling so weight of the articulating arm is almost neutral. The router swivels on the end of the arm. It was a really fun project. The picture was taken after first assembly and it didn't take any tweaking afterward except improvements in the anti gravity spring thing. Attachment: 19 Final Setup and Testing.JPG Brian