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| Chinese Zipflex purfling http://w-ww.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10101&t=53768 |
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| Author: | Tai Fu [ Tue Dec 15, 2020 11:51 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Chinese Zipflex purfling |
So I found these zipflex type purfling from China. They really upped their game for sure! Attachment: aa.jpg I know many of you would balk at ordering anything from China, but for those of us not in the US it's our only options, because I don't think Depaule has Zipflex. They're also real cheap, 5 dollars gives you enough zipflex to do an entire perimeter of the guitar (this is a Grand Auditorium). The ziricote back and side set costs me about 150 as well. Attachment: TB2Nd1wXVXXXXXPXXXXXXXXXXXX_!!101512091.jpg This is from their catalog... |
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| Author: | meddlingfool [ Wed Dec 16, 2020 12:23 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Chinese Zipflex purfling |
Looks good from here! |
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| Author: | Clay S. [ Wed Dec 16, 2020 12:44 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Chinese Zipflex purfling |
Good to see you posting again Tai, Are they using solid shell or ablam for that product? |
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| Author: | Tai Fu [ Wed Dec 16, 2020 12:55 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Chinese Zipflex purfling |
It looks like abalam to me. I mean because I see layers from the side. But apart from density differences I don't see any difference in the final product with abalam. But I bought this abalam from China that only has the first (.010") layer that is abalone and the rest of the layers are all MOP. It sucked real bad because just trying to level sand it after inlay would result in ruined inlay. I'll use it for pieces requiring MOP but I am still trying to track down inexpensive source of abalone shell for laser engraving. You ever tried to cut chinese characters by hand? By the way I install purfling and binding in 2 steps because I don't have any fancy binding jigs. So I am using edge guide that came with my router to route the channel. As a result they are not even in thickness (and there is no way I can fix this). So I needed the purfling installed so I can file and fit for binding fit as necessary. It is real time consuming, but I am not getting paid much building guitars and so I can't afford fancy binding jigs. |
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| Author: | meddlingfool [ Wed Dec 16, 2020 1:40 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Chinese Zipflex purfling |
All you need is a set of drawer slides or you can even make a paralellogram with 4 hinges... |
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| Author: | meddlingfool [ Wed Dec 16, 2020 1:45 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Chinese Zipflex purfling |
meddlingfool wrote: All you need is a set of drawer slides or you can even make a paralellogram with 4 hinges... You can just use the hinge part and skip the drawer parts. |
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| Author: | meddlingfool [ Wed Dec 16, 2020 1:46 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Chinese Zipflex purfling |
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| Author: | Tai Fu [ Wed Dec 16, 2020 10:29 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Chinese Zipflex purfling |
Yea, but the fact is, no matter what I do, wooden binding just fights me every step of the way, no matter how well the binding fits, or how thin it is (so that it is more flexible). I needed more than 50lbs of pressure to get them to go into position without gaps. Tape will not work. So binding takes a long time because I am actually using clamps to install them, 1 inch at a time. |
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| Author: | Clay S. [ Wed Dec 16, 2020 10:41 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Chinese Zipflex purfling |
If you want a material that is cheap and relatively easy to install, buy some plastic edge banding and make your own "boltaron' style binding. |
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| Author: | Tai Fu [ Wed Dec 16, 2020 10:51 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Chinese Zipflex purfling |
Well, I agree and I can find ABS plastic strips cheaply enough (or buy Celluloid from Taobao). But the reason mass produced guitars use plastic binding is because they're easy to install, however I am not able to get Weldon #16 for the work so I'll use CA. Maybe if I make a budget line of guitars I'll just use plastic binding and skip wood. Plastic is just so much more forgiving. You can melt it together and not worry about lines. Curly maple is hard, every joint or attachment is visible. |
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| Author: | meddlingfool [ Wed Dec 16, 2020 11:47 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Chinese Zipflex purfling |
If it takes 50lbs of pressure to get your bindings snug, there is clearly something wrong with your process. |
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| Author: | phavriluk [ Wed Dec 16, 2020 12:08 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Chinese Zipflex purfling |
Would this Chinese zipflex' respond to some encouragement from a heat gun? The side bending mold could be used to monitor progress, and heat guns used in the model airplane hobby don't try to set the world on fire. |
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| Author: | Tai Fu [ Wed Dec 16, 2020 12:15 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Chinese Zipflex purfling |
phavriluk wrote: Would this Chinese zipflex' respond to some encouragement from a heat gun? The side bending mold could be used to monitor progress, and heat guns used in the model airplane hobby don't try to set the world on fire. No heat gun is necessary at all. This stuff is basically segments of shell, and it is very flexible. It comes in a roll as pictured, and you simply unroll it and install it like a piece of flexible purfling. It has a piece of rubber backing that keeps it flexible. I do not know how the real zipflex respond. |
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| Author: | phavriluk [ Wed Dec 16, 2020 12:35 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Chinese Zipflex purfling |
Wood binding - - - I've bent them to shape over a pipe and in the Fox bender. I can't install them without bending first. Alternatively, I could install thin strips laminated in place, but I found bending first to be most productive. |
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| Author: | meddlingfool [ Wed Dec 16, 2020 2:35 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Chinese Zipflex purfling |
Yes wood binding needs to be bent, just like the sides. I make a little patty of the bindings and purflings and bend them at the same time as the sides... |
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| Author: | Glen H [ Wed Dec 16, 2020 3:21 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Chinese Zipflex purfling |
Tai Fu wrote: It looks like abalam to me. I mean because I see layers from the side. But apart from density differences I don't see any difference in the final product with abalam. But I bought this abalam from China that only has the first (.010") layer that is abalone and the rest of the layers are all MOP. It sucked real bad because just trying to level sand it after inlay would result in ruined inlay. I'll use it for pieces requiring MOP but I am still trying to track down inexpensive source of abalone shell for laser engraving. You ever tried to cut chinese characters by hand? By the way I install purfling and binding in 2 steps because I don't have any fancy binding jigs. So I am using edge guide that came with my router to route the channel. As a result they are not even in thickness (and there is no way I can fix this). So I needed the purfling installed so I can file and fit for binding fit as necessary. It is real time consuming, but I am not getting paid much building guitars and so I can't afford fancy binding jigs. Tai, I can sympathize with the binding struggle. This post is about a binding jig I built cheap that I find works very well for me. http://www.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10101&t=19253&hilit=+Binding |
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| Author: | Tai Fu [ Thu Dec 17, 2020 3:23 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Chinese Zipflex purfling |
Actually the Chinese seller has binding router bits that have the correct profile, in different profiles (depending on the purfling you are installing). It cuts binding and purfling channel in one go. It wasn't cheap either, equivalent of 10 USD for a router bit made in China. I had bent some binding yesterday that sprung back today. I found out that I could bend it back into shape using a heat gun. Maybe I could use a heat gun while fitting bindings on to minimize it fighting me so much? |
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| Author: | Pmaj7 [ Thu Dec 17, 2020 4:34 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Chinese Zipflex purfling |
Tai Fu wrote: Actually the Chinese seller has binding router bits that have the correct profile, in different profiles (depending on the purfling you are installing). It cuts binding and purfling channel in one go. It wasn't cheap either, equivalent of 10 USD for a router bit made in China. Do you have a link to those bits? Sounds interesting! Does it use a bearing?I had bent some binding yesterday that sprung back today. I found out that I could bend it back into shape using a heat gun. Maybe I could use a heat gun while fitting bindings on to minimize it fighting me so much? Pat |
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| Author: | Tai Fu [ Thu Dec 17, 2020 4:46 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Chinese Zipflex purfling |
https://item.taobao.com/item.htm?spm=a3 ... 2697394141 Attachment: O1CN01z1iyzA1RJilErvxLZ_!!101512091.jpg This is the Taobao link. It uses a bearing. The cutter itself cuts the channel for blinding (1.5mm thick) and the purfling, have different bits from 1.5 all the way to 4mm in .5mm increments. The picture shows how it is used. They also sell tru channel type jigs. |
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| Author: | bluescreek [ Thu Dec 17, 2020 8:43 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Chinese Zipflex purfling |
actually plastic is more protective when bumped wood can be pretty but can also be difficult. I do wood binding at .0625 in I also break the inside corner with fine sandpaper. Then when I get ready to install ( I still find duco acceptable ) I use duco or tite bond depending on the purfling. I hate CA for binding , on some woods it will leave a glue footprint. Also I use a green 3m tape. The key is to get this wood binding to seat into your grooves the top is easy the back is more problematic that is why I wet it first , this helps it flex and tite bond is not affected by the water. |
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| Author: | Colin North [ Thu Dec 17, 2020 10:20 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Chinese Zipflex purfling |
I found this handy for the link, no Chinese.... https://www.imoney.my/articles/taobao-shopping-guide#:~:text=First%20download%20and%20install%20Google,your%20Google%20Chrome%20address%20bar. |
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| Author: | jfmckenna [ Thu Dec 17, 2020 10:55 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Chinese Zipflex purfling |
Try roping when you do wood bindings. You get a good deal of clamping pressure that way. As for abalone and pearl products the best place I've found is the Australian Mother of Pearl Supplies company. They have the best prices and the quality is good. You can find all kinds of sheets there to make your Chinese characters. |
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| Author: | doncaparker [ Thu Dec 17, 2020 11:00 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Chinese Zipflex purfling |
For wood binding (which is all I use), I don't use tape any more. I use silicone rubber bands. Big, thick, 1 inch and 3/4 inch wide bands. The guitar sits on a guitar shaped platform (with padding), and there are dowels on the bottom of the platform over which the bands are stretched and anchored. And I use hot hide glue, with some urea mixed in to slow down the gelling. This all works really well. John is right about cutting back the inside corner a little. This is a miniature version of his advice for setting a dovetail joint. Round over the outside corners that are supposed to fit into inside corners, and everything fits together better. Regarding bending the wood binding: Just get it close, overbend the waist a little, and it usually works out. Wood is flexible when it is this thin. Get it in the ballpark and let the clamping pressure (in my case, from the rubber bands) do the rest. I just don't like trusting tape to provide that clamping pressure. |
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| Author: | Toonces [ Thu Dec 17, 2020 11:29 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Chinese Zipflex purfling |
Ed is absolutely right here -- if you have to really force the bindings then you are doing something wrong. Additionally, even though glue is quite strong - I wouldn't trust the glue joint. Anything more than a bit of finger pressure to close any gaps and you need to stop -- and rework your process. 1. Going thin is definitely helpful - I recommend .075" as a good starting point. 2. Plates with complex geometry can induce curves that the binding must follow. For example, my guitars are 4.5" at the tail and 3.5" at the heel. The back has a radius of 15'. This means that right around the apex of the upper bout, the binding has to not only bend to shape my body profile but have a concave curve downward as well as rotate inward. Regularly bent bindings will require me to really force the bindings to get them to close on the upper bout region. The curve for the cutaway is even worse. ***The solution is to bend your bindings with a slat that is already profiled to account for the plate geometry. Some folks bend their bindings with their sides already profiled. I created a special template that matches the contour of my sides with a notch at the waist region. I transfer this template to a "spare side" and bend my back bindings with it. I also have a template just for the cutaway portion. The top is flat enough that I can just bend them normally. My spare side is a slat off mahogany I shave off my neck blanks. Those templates are essential for me to get a good fit on my back bindings. If your guitar has less offset in depth between the tail and heel, then these templates are not as necessary. |
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| Author: | Bob Orr [ Thu Dec 17, 2020 2:43 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Chinese Zipflex purfling |
meddlingfool wrote: If it takes 50lbs of pressure to get your bindings snug, there is clearly something wrong with your process. Are you trying to put on wooden binding without bending them first. You need to bend them on a hot pipe to as near the profile of the sides as you can get. You should not need to apply lots of pressure. |
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