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Help me formulate how to move forward
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Author:  SnowManSnow [ Wed Dec 30, 2020 4:44 pm ]
Post subject:  Help me formulate how to move forward
There is a WEALTH of guitar building wisdom here, which I respect a great deal, so I want to drop this thread here.

This morning my wife asked me something about my building that I hadn't really considered: What do you want to do with this? She suggested that I set a goal for how many guitars I wanted to sell this year (which IMMEDIATELY rubbed me the wrong way). But it has got me thinking.

Now, I know that I'm not interested in trying to really make any money building guitars. That's just not what I'm interested in and my respect goes out to those of you who manage to pull off such a task! However, I do want to move forward with purpose. I remember when I first started that my thought was I wanted to build "lovely guitars", as odd as that sounds. I want to make instruments that people pick up and cant put down because they just FEEL and SOUND like nothing they have experienced before. I don't care if they are covered in pearl, have fancy headstocks, or segmented rosettes (all of which are fine).

I've been building for about 4 years, I think. I've put together 20 instruments, and managed to find homes for all but a few. My last few have actually allowed me to cover mats and upgrade my shop. But, I feel like I'm stuck. While there is a wealth of knowledge on youtube and such, I feel it can only go so far in the learning process. Hans once told me there is no sense in just making average guitars, and I agree.

So, back to my lovely wife's suggestion of building a number. It rubbed me wrong because I want to find more excellence, not really quantity. I mean I could bang some out, but meh.

So what does one do? How do I become more excellent in building a guitar? Is it just moving slower, more thoughtfully, and with more precision? I'm not sure the answer is just "rinse and repeat" any more (although in the beginning I see the merit).

If my rant is confusing I apologize.
Wisdom is much appreciated.
Peace.
B
Author:  Marcus [ Wed Dec 30, 2020 5:04 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Help me formulate how to move forward
To me, that question is a little bit loaded; not that I think its a bad question. If you were draw a linear path between hobby and business. The question your wife asked you is nudging you into the business realm which can be more about content than it is feeling. It sounds like you are wanting to live in the hobby realm where guitar building is more of an escape and at your own pace.

I empathize with you as I am sort of in the same boat. I have also around 20 guitars under my belt and I am trying to figure out what the next step is. I believe that in order to grow, you need to push yourself. For me, that looks like trying to gain one more order a year. I also have to fight my urge to just give guitars away. I am beginning to actually think my work has value and giving away that work isn't such a wise choice.

I dont know if any of that helped you. It probably helped me more by typing it out, lol.
Author:  ballbanjos [ Wed Dec 30, 2020 5:08 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Help me formulate how to move forward
I can't speak for guitars, since I've never built them for money, but I went through the same process with banjos. I started out building them just for the joy of building them and working out processes that I liked. I'm a very process oriented person--the getting there is always more fun for me than actually arriving. Anyway, I would get one built, and I'd sell it to raise the money to build another and beef up the shop a bit in the process.

Before long, I was taking orders for custom banjos. That was fun for awhile, but building what someone else wanted rather than what I wanted started to wear on me. I was getting really backlogged too--I had about a three year backlog and had to stop taking orders. I kept raising my prices, hoping that it would cut down on demand, but it didn't. I decided to get through the backlog of custom stuff and then go back to building what I wanted to and selling on spec. I did that, and still didn't have any trouble selling what I built. I had found a niche that no one else was filling at the time. If that happened to me today, as a retiree, I could have kept up with the demand and made some bucks. But probably not have a lot of fun with it. That's a lot of why I'm back to building guitars now. Back to that working out processes.

For me, every instrument I built taught me something that improved the next one. Still happening today. But I think that taking the time to relish and contemplate every part of building is something that makes the whole thing worth while. That's something I was losing when I got overbooked. It was becoming a job instead of a very nice pastime.

I'm fortunate in having actually made more money than I've spent for a very fun hobby. But, breaking even is the best I had ever hoped for, and I don't even hope for that any more. Working in the shop is what's kept me going during the past rather bizarre year. That's worth a whole lot.

So I say, keep on building just for the sake of building/learning from mistakes/improving processes. And most of all, keep it fun. Like the old joke says, "Who do expect to please with THAT?" "ME!"

Just my .02.

Dave
Author:  TerrenceMitchell [ Wed Dec 30, 2020 5:12 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Help me formulate how to move forward
I don't have the decades of guitar experience that some others on this forum do. However, I think the question you are asking is more about what you find fulfilling.

That said, I do believe that making things that pile up in your house, where no one appreciates or gets any value out of is a problem. I've made furniture for many years (25+) and it didn't take me too many years to realize that my goal was to make things that would last. I started every customer discussion with "how long do you expect to keep this piece?". If I wasn't convinced they would use it until they finally passed it to a relative I suggested they try the local furniture store... which was certainly going to be less expensive. My thought was that 80 hours of my life was goin into something. If it ended up in a garage sale, or the dumpster, that's not an acceptable return on my investment.

That rant concluded, I would suggest that a goal is a very good thing. I set a goal of selling 12 instruments in 2020, and I made it to 11... a couple of which are still in process. l think goals help us focus and improve our work are excellent ways of pushing us to achieve. The good news is that you don't have to compromise your principals or vision to do so. You can set a goal and meet it with instruments that reflect your passion. It might be difficult, but that will push growth, not compromise.

So, set your goals. Push yourself. Innovate along the way and grow as a craftsman. Next year you might be surprised what you are considering as your new goals.
Author:  meddlingfool [ Wed Dec 30, 2020 5:15 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Help me formulate how to move forward
Not sure what to tell you. Maybe analyze what you don’t like about your guitars and try to determine why it may be so, and what to do about it? Try to find some guitars that are much better than yours and see if you can figure out what they’re doing differently?

It can also be helpful to find someone who really knows what they’re doing and have them critique the heck out of your work, painful as that may be to swallow. Unfortunately friends and family are easy to impress and will not likely have the critical faculties to give really pointed feedback.

You have the Gore/Gilet books, yeah?

There is enough information in there that you should be able to analyze your guitars pretty thoroughly.

Maybe see if there’s a course you can take somewhere?

Your wife is right though...if you’re going to invest that much time in the shop, you should be getting at least something back out of it. And frankly as a hobbiest, you have some advantages in terms of what to build and how to price them...

Other than that, mastery in this craft is a long road and 4 years is still pretty fresh, so don’t get discouraged.
Author:  SnowManSnow [ Wed Dec 30, 2020 5:43 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Help me formulate how to move forward
Thanks for the replies so far. I'm not trying to load the question ha, and I know a lot of people face things like this.
Ed, you're right I need to find specifics about what I don't like and focus more resource, whatever that may be, in that area.

I do have the GG books, man that first one is some HEAVY reading haha. When I was reading through it I felt like a rocket scientist that understood very little of how I was actually GETTING to the moon :) Great stuff though.

I'm not discouraged, but rather searching for more focus:) Yes I want to keep this as a hobby, because of the flexibility it affords me. As I stated I have about 20 down and only 2 are sitting in my basement because of breaking flaws that I find unacceptable. The others have homes thankfully :)
Author:  Pmaj7 [ Wed Dec 30, 2020 5:44 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Help me formulate how to move forward
Depends what you mean by "more excellent". Some things about your work that you wished looked better? Some things you wished sounded better? Some features or appointments that you have yet to try? More excellent in your process? Execution?

Maybe try a different instrument or some completely different techniques?

Pat
Author:  jfmckenna [ Wed Dec 30, 2020 6:01 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Help me formulate how to move forward
"How do I become more excellent in building a guitar? Is it just moving slower, more thoughtfully, and with more precision?"

IMHO no. Do not move slower. In fact move faster. The more mistakes you make the more you learn. Many years ago a friend of mine who (and this is the important part) is an aerospace engineer with a degree in philosophy wanted to build a guitar and asked me for a bit of guidance even though at the time, about 1995, I had only built ten guitars. Because he is a meticulous engineer EVERYTHING had to be planned out perfectly before it was executed. It literally took him almost two years to build the guitar, meanwhile I had built 20 more in that time period, learned a hell of a lot more then he did and also made a few duds and lots of mistakes too.

No offense to the engineers on this forum :D

Point being, that method is the school of hard knocks but unless you go through an actual apprenticeship it's really the only way to learn. Youtube videos, Trevors books, Somogyi s books, Cumpiano, Benedetto, and even Sloans books should probably be on every luthiers shelves but they only take you so far. In fact I would not doubt that even a master builder like Somogyi would still say he's learning.

The second and third part of your statement I would have to agree with. After 20 instruments it's time to start getting more precise and working with more intent and thoughtfulness. Take notes on everything so you have reference points for successive guitars.

In the end though enjoy it. Like me you are not doing it to make a living so you don't need it for food, cloths and shelter. But it's real nice selling a guitar that helps pay for a nice vacation or even an expensive bottle of bourbon, or what ever it may be.

Maybe the answer to the question of where you want to take this is, I want to learn and grow. It's not unlike taking up golf or chess or something that you learn, get better at and find a lot of personal gratification doing. Some things don't really need answers.

My wife sometimes tells me I am obsessed with guitars and I just say, it's better then heroin :D
Author:  doncaparker [ Wed Dec 30, 2020 6:52 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Help me formulate how to move forward
First, get a new wife. KIDDING!!!

I think there are a few different questions in your original post that are worth pondering.

First: How do you get better at building guitars? I think JF has the right answer. Build more guitars. Even though you feel like building more of them won't teach you anything, I just do not believe that. I think doing more of anything is the only way (combined with some observation, reflection, and trying to do better each and every time) of getting better at it. The only way.

Notice that I tossed in there the requirement that you try to do better each and every time. If it takes diving deep into the Gore/Gilet book to get there (which I do think is a great idea), then do that in addition to building more guitars. Incorporate the new things you learn. In particular, dig deep into the resonance measurement stuff. Man, that stuff is gold. It ain't easy to mine that gold, but it's gold.

Second: How does guitar making fit into your life? I think you and your wife should talk about that. My wife is excited for the day when I am finally ready to try to sell some of the guitars I make, because she wants to help, and it overlaps with her already artsy life. Neither she nor I ever expect to make anything other than spare change by selling guitars. Money is not the point. My wife and I have a crystal clear vision of the real goal of my guitar making: I want to make things that are beautiful, that are useful, and that will outlive me. That's it. The money is secondary, and almost (but not completely) irrelevant. What I (what she and I) get out of this pastime is the ability to make things for other people that will be beautiful, and useful, and live on bringing joy long after she and I are gone. Are those your goals, or something similar? Then have a strong discussion with your wife about that. She might not get it. But she needs to know what you are looking for out of all this.

Third: Consider the possibility that, given the goals expressed above (not money, but loftier pursuits), maybe this pastime is taking up too much of your life. Is it? Mine doesn't. I mean, I enjoy it, but I also enjoy other parts of my life, and if guitar making has to go on pause while I am busy with other things, that's what happens. I built my first guitar in 1996. I just finished #8. Now, that doesn't mean it takes me 4 years to build a guitar. It means I have a lot of stuff going on in my life. I have a demanding job, a daughter, a cool wife who is my best friend, church responsibilities, other volunteer responsibilities, etc. Until a few years ago, I would maybe go an entire year without building anything. I would just be too busy with other stuff. And that's OK. I have more time to build now, and I am a little better at it than I used to be, but I still have long stretches of no building going on. Just make sure you are keeping this as something you do because you love it, and make enough time for it, but not at the expense of the other things you enjoy and the things you have to do.

Those are the best thoughts I can offer. Good luck with the soul searching.
Author:  jfmckenna [ Wed Dec 30, 2020 7:26 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Help me formulate how to move forward
Don' post just reminded me. I think it was my tenth guitar and my wife who is also artsy, I have a guitar workshop outbuilding and across the yard is her pottery workshop outbuilding, (we never even see each other :D ) made the rosette and it's signed as such on the label in the guitar and I STILL play that guitar, a classical guitar, almost every day.

I tried throwing pottery once but it was a huge mess!
Author:  DennisK [ Wed Dec 30, 2020 7:37 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Help me formulate how to move forward
Sounds like you're not interested in making it a primary source of income, so it doesn't matter how many you make/sell each year. Perhaps a more meaningful question then is how much money do you plan to make per hour of building? That way you can do as much or as little as you like, and still have a measure of how financially viable it is.
Author:  ballbanjos [ Wed Dec 30, 2020 7:51 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Help me formulate how to move forward
jfmckenna wrote:
Don' post just reminded me. I think it was my tenth guitar and my wife who is also artsy, I have a guitar workshop outbuilding and across the yard is her pottery workshop outbuilding, (we never even see each other :D ) made the rosette and it's signed as such on the label in the guitar and I STILL play that guitar, a classical guitar, almost every day.

I tried throwing pottery once but it was a huge mess!


I think that can be a blessing. My wife and I have been together for a little over 46 years now. It's only been in the past year that we've both been in the same place together 7x24 (and enhanced by the COVID thing). Having separate spaces and interests are more important than ever. We each support the other's bad habits (or whatever you want to call them).

But we still go out for hikes pretty much every day. Do the usual home routine. Balance is the whole deal, and part of that balance is separate "doing your own thing" time.

Dave
Author:  bcombs510 [ Wed Dec 30, 2020 8:19 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Help me formulate how to move forward
Interesting thread, something that comes to mind....

I would recommend really looking hard at the question of hobby vs business. I was in a bad habit of saying “hobby only” early on building instruments to insulate myself from the idea of what being in business as a builder actually looks like. If you are 100% convinced it’s not a possible business then carry on. If you think it might become a business then start now with treating it that way. It doesn’t mean if you don’t move into a business, even just part time, that you have somehow failed. It’s more about treating it like a business now on the chance it becomes one. If five years down the road it’s time to become a business that is definitely not the time you want to try and go back and “fix” all the processes, fixtures, mindset. I have had the fortune of having two of my hobbies turn into businesses and one of which set the trajectory for my professional career. In both cases, as well as with instrument building, it was treated like a business from early on. It makes the transition so much smoother later in the event it moves beyond hobby.

If you’re feeling in a rut - something that would be fun is take the Gore build book and follow it start to finish including building all the jigs that you don’t already have. I have used parts of the book but haven’t really done a deep dive taking one instrument start to finish using their methods exclusively. Would be fun I think.

Brad


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Author:  Alan Carruth [ Wed Dec 30, 2020 9:12 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Help me formulate how to move forward
Mark Twain said something to the effect that a hobby is something that a man does for love, but would not do for any amount of money. Most of the makers I know don't do this strictly for money: they are 'hobbyists' in that sense, who have turned it into a business to keep their wives happy, and use the revenue to keep up their hobby. ;)

If what you're after is wonderful tone and feel, you've already gotten some good advice. First, you have to make enough instruments to get your 'craft' chops up. It won't do you any good to fully understand how these things work if you can't translate that into wood. Second, you'll need to go back to school, and plan on staying there for the rest of your life. It has been said that the only physics more complicated than acoustics is quantum mechanics, and guitars seem to be deliberately complicated. The G&G books are certainly good to have, but don't think that's all there is to learn. I've gotten into the habit of buying every used book I can find on acoustics: they each have something in them that nobody else seems to have covered.

Keep plenty of records. Once you have some idea of how you think these things work document what you've done with that in mind. If you think that tickling the strings makes leprechauns laugh, and that's where the sound comes from, you need to figure out a way to count leprechauns. In that connection: "It doesn't matter which road you take if you don't care where you're going". Figure out what sounds good and plays well for you, and concentrate on moving toward those goals. Your tastes may be idiosyncratic, but there are probably enough other folks with similar tastes to buy what you make if you can figure out how to connect to them. These days that's less of an issue than it was.

I've been doing this for nearly fifty years. I would have stopped a long time ago if I were not learning something with every build. That's not to say that each one is necessarily 'better' than the last one in every respect, but I've been able to raise what my violin making teacher used to call my 'standard of mediocrity' pretty steadily, and there's no end in sight.
Author:  Dave m2 [ Thu Dec 31, 2020 7:47 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Help me formulate how to move forward
I would love to comment but people have pretty much said what I wanted to say.

What may be useful to share is that I think most of us amateurs, who are pretty passionate about building, do go through the same mental gymnastics. I don’t have any answers.

Perhaps remember that we want to make the best guitars that we can. Which means keep building while applying all the knowledge we can glean from the sources that are available.


However I absolutely love Alan’s idea that we can improve our standard of mediocrity!
This is not a turn off but wake up call to do better!

Dave
Author:  Dave Livermore [ Thu Dec 31, 2020 11:00 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Help me formulate how to move forward
The first few seasons of the show NCIS featured a lead detective who would spend time in his basement, after solving a big case, working on a boat he was building, drinking fine liquor.
In his basement. A boat.
In his basement.

That boat is never going to see the sea. But he still builds it.

Your question reminded me of that.

You’re asking why you’re building guitars.

Your answer is because it makes you happy.

If that’s enough for you, let it be and make another.
Author:  James Orr [ Fri Jan 01, 2021 3:52 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Help me formulate how to move forward
I just want to say how impressive I think it is that you’ve made 20 in four years.


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Author:  SnowManSnow [ Fri Jan 01, 2021 4:08 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Help me formulate how to move forward
James Orr wrote:
I just want to say how impressive I think it is that you’ve made 20 in four years.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

The first 3 were kits to be fair, or I’d have been Ssoooooooo lost hahaha

I’m definitely slowing down. I’m seeing more detail and such. I can tell that my eye has changed since I started. I wish I had the material back for a few of them to try again haha


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Author:  Terence Kennedy [ Sat Jan 02, 2021 11:18 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Help me formulate how to move forward
After building several kits in the late 90s and taking the Fox course in 2004 I had a baseline to work with but the big break for me in a positive evolution of my instruments was developing a relationship with an iconic high end store in Minneapolis in 2006.

The staff and repair person at the store were not only great players in their own right but had many years of experience in the retail world of high end instruments. Many local professionals also hung out there and a few were a big help as well. I had a great set of eyes and ears to critique my stuff. It made all the difference in the world in my mind.

As have many similar stores, that one closed after 60 plus years of business but my relationships with the people remain and their critiques continue to be invaluable.

If you can just find even two or three respected professionals both in performance and repair/building to evaluate your work and have thick enough skin to accept criticism I think it could be a positive step in your quest.

Another consideration would be taking a well established building course and bringing several of your instruments for evaluation. Could be a game changer if you are serious about moving to the next plateau.

Good luck!!
Author:  Alan Carruth [ Sat Jan 02, 2021 12:58 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Help me formulate how to move forward
Good critical input is really important. Another thing that I think everybody needs is at least some repair experience. Knowing how things break, and why, is really useful.
Author:  kwerry [ Sat Jan 02, 2021 2:41 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Help me formulate how to move forward
Well That's a good question!!! I started off as a hobby builder about 8-9 years ago and then retired and thought I would try and make a bit of money at this and set some goals about numbers I wanted to build and sell.. now after a couple of years doing that I've sold some guitars and got good feedback and got some that have yet to sell (my wife has noticed this) HOWEVER I'm find less enjoyment in the process as it becomes more of a get this done today so I can move on to the net step tomorrow..

Selling guitars or anything you make I guess is about selling yourself and your vision at least in part and I don't really enjoy that.. I don't "need" to sell guitars to make a living, it would be nice to not loose money but tools are all bought and I have years worth of wood so my costs now are not that big..

As an armature (or someone not out to make a living doing this) we should have the luxury of time. Time to enjoy the process and time to invest in a great or at least as good as we can do product.. I heard someone say once that they once had a goal to make a guitar in 100 hours and now their goal was to make a guitar in 200 hours.. Can't remember who said that but for those of us not in this to make a living it might be a good goal..

For me I like making new things pretty frequently a guitar, a tenor guitar, a mandocello what ever strikes my fancy and that is not a way to make money or frankly to grow the knowledge to make the one best instrument possible.. So making what I could sell or making a run of 3 or 4 mostly identical instruments was not that enjoyable.. I'm now seriously thinking about going back to making 2-3 instruments a year and doing what I want and worry less about marketing..

It is a fact that the amateurs here have the advantage of time and I've always thought that an experienced amateur should be able to make as good or better guitar than many "professionals" now it might take much wore time for them to get to that level but as I said they have time on their side. Might as well use it..
Author:  SteveSmith [ Sat Jan 02, 2021 3:24 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Help me formulate how to move forward
The things that have helped me improve the most are, building more guitars, doing repairs, taking classes from well known luthiers, getting advice on specific questions from other well known luthiers and building more guitars. Invite honest critiques and keep a thick skin; I remember I took what I thought was a very nicely braced top to Kent Everett and he looked at it and basically told me it was crap. He was right and I know that now. Of course he also showed me how to do it right. Over the years I've had several lessons (opportunities) like that, if you don't know what you're doing wrong you can't work on making it right.

As far as the business aspect goes I found out quickly that I don't like doing commissions and I don't like building on a schedule so no more commissions. I build what I want when I want, spec guitars if you will. If someone wants to buy them fine, if not that's fine too. If I get tired of looking at them occasionally I give one away (not lately though - ha). The money in my shop primarily comes in from setups, repairs and the occasional restoration. I have a reputation with a small group of musicians for being able to make their guitar, bass or banjo play like butter and that tends to keep me busy enough. I'm retired and I don't want another full-time job so I deliberately keep this down to about 15 hours a week because that's all I want to do. I could easily do more.

It all depends on what you want to do with this luthier thing. Good luck with it!
Author:  Ken Nagy [ Sat Jan 02, 2021 7:32 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Help me formulate how to move forward
I guess that it just comes down to what you do it for. I made violins first because they were carved, and that seemed like fun. I never even held a "real"violin until I made a few! I got feedback, and it was ALWAYS on something that I didn't even notice; well, besides my varnish. The finish is getting better.

I like making different things: two violas, a 5 string based on a 1/2 size cello, the baroque guitar in G, and the arch top were all made from photos that I saw online or just drawings I made.

I haven't had anyone check out the arch top. I'm sure they would find something that I didn't! I know some things that I would have to do better if I was going to sell them. One thing about the guitar is that at least I can sort of play it now, and it plays and sounds pretty good. I haven't gone in anywhere and played any guitars to see what a good one plays yet, so maybe I'm deluded!

I've only made a dozen instruments in about 18 years. You have more experience, and it's all in one area. I thought I'd get more done now that I retired a year ago, but I do my work on them in the afternoon. Who wants a job? If I didn't do something different every time, I could probably get more finished. I will probably get guitars finished quicker, because I want to play them. The little Staufer guitar I've started will probably go fast once I figure out the joint at the head, I designed my own, and do a mock up of that and the adjustable neck.

There I go again doing something different.

So go with what works for you.
Author:  Clay S. [ Sun Jan 03, 2021 1:07 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Help me formulate how to move forward
DennisK wrote:
Sounds like you're not interested in making it a primary source of income, so it doesn't matter how many you make/sell each year. Perhaps a more meaningful question then is how much money do you plan to make per hour of building? That way you can do as much or as little as you like, and still have a measure of how financially viable it is.



A more meaningful question may be how much do you plan to - spend - per hour of building. Considering what I have spent on tools and materials over the years, I would probably have to "work" to 100 to break even on my "investment". If you (and your wife) can accept the hobby to be one like golf where there is no expectation of recovering the money spent, then what you build and how many you sell is no longer an issue.
I try to be "frugal", but the stacks of exotic lumber, a few thousand square feet of veneer, and several hundred guitar tops belie this notion. I have accumulated this "dross" and associated tooling to process it over a period of more than 40 years, so it has been a creeping accretion of stuff which makes the accounting of the cost more difficult.
Like golf, becoming a highly successful "Pro" is a rarity in the field of guitar building. Most of us are "players", and a few manage to break even. But it is fun. bliss
Author:  Alan Carruth [ Sun Jan 03, 2021 2:49 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Help me formulate how to move forward
Beethoven reportedly said something to the effect that nobody should write music unless it makes them really uncomfortable not to.

I often say that there are two things everybody knows about musicians: they're all crazy, and they don't have any money. We're trying to make a living building expensive stuff to sell to crazy people who have no money. What does that make us? What saves us is that the musicians are all addicts; they have to have that thing.
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