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How would you repair this much checking?
http://w-ww.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10101&t=53849		 Page 1 of 1
Author:  Pmaj7 [ Sun Jan 10, 2021 3:26 pm ]
Post subject:  How would you repair this much checking?
From an impact. Never seen so much checking and so far from the impact. An '88 Taylor, assuming nitro?

Ultra thin CA is my go-to in these situations, but I would be a little worried that it wouldn't fill in all the checking and then it would be sealed from the outside. Thoughts?

Thx, PatImage
Author:  Darrel Friesen [ Sun Jan 10, 2021 5:13 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: How would you repair this much checking?
If it's nitro, then butyl cellosolve seems to be the go to. Nasty stuff though. Frank Ford has info on it on his website.
Author:  Mike_P [ Sun Jan 10, 2021 5:15 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: How would you repair this much checking?
I'm no expert on Taylors, but I'm 99.99% sure that's not going to be nitro...said opinion comes from a memory of talking to their head of warranty a few times about my '86 and that memory says that's some sort of poly...
Author:  Chris Pile [ Sun Jan 10, 2021 5:46 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: How would you repair this much checking?
Sometimes the repair is worse than the accident. Just leave it alone. One things for sure, if it ever gets stolen, it will be easily ID'd.
Author:  Victor Seal [ Mon Jan 11, 2021 7:24 am ]
Post subject:  Re: How would you repair this much checking?
Strip and refinish????
Author:  jfmckenna [ Mon Jan 11, 2021 9:33 am ]
Post subject:  Re: How would you repair this much checking?
I think Taylor moved away from nitro in '92 or was it '94? Something like that. Pretty sure that one would be Nitro if it's an '88.
Author:  SteveSmith [ Mon Jan 11, 2021 9:52 am ]
Post subject:  Re: How would you repair this much checking?
Funny I haven't seen nitro crack like that. Must have been put on awfully thick.
Author:  Barry Daniels [ Mon Jan 11, 2021 11:26 am ]
Post subject:  Re: How would you repair this much checking?
Do the nitro test. Remove a tuner, put a drop of lacquer thinner, wait a minute and wipe off. If there is a small crater in the finish then it's nitro. Done deal.
Author:  Tai Fu [ Mon Jan 11, 2021 2:37 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: How would you repair this much checking?
As far as I know Taylor uses UV cured poly and it's really tough stuff. But I never seen it crack like that. No idea what they used back in the 80s though.

If it's UV cured poly then your only option is to wick thin CA into the finish and polish the best you can, however the lines will always be there. Only way to make it good as new is refinish it.

I find Taylor's UV poly is rather brittle too, which explains why it cracks like that. Automotive 2K urethane finish is hard but is flexible to some extent. So much so that the film can flex quite a lot without cracking (they are used in fishing rod too where such a brittle finish would only result in the paint flaking off).
Author:  Pmaj7 [ Tue Jan 12, 2021 1:17 am ]
Post subject:  Re: How would you repair this much checking?
I called Taylor with the year and model and they said it was finished with 'Fullerplast'. I looked it up online and apparently fender and Gibson used it in the 80s and 90s. there were a lot of online comments saying that it was difficult to repair. Anyone have experience with this?

Pat
Author:  Tai Fu [ Tue Jan 12, 2021 1:21 am ]
Post subject:  Re: How would you repair this much checking?
Fullerplast is basically polyester. You can't repair that and they are very brittle.
Author:  jfmckenna [ Tue Jan 12, 2021 8:14 am ]
Post subject:  Re: How would you repair this much checking?
Well hmmmm. I would have sworn that they were using nitro back then, maybe it depended on the model.
Author:  wbergman [ Tue Jan 12, 2021 8:23 am ]
Post subject:  Re: How would you repair this much checking?
Two things.

Wouldn't thin CA discolor the wood underneath?

If this is the area of the lower bought where the arm rests, maybe hide the cracks under and arm rest. Or just live with it.
Author:  Tai Fu [ Tue Jan 12, 2021 9:11 am ]
Post subject:  Re: How would you repair this much checking?
For nitro, you gotta deal with guitar companies that has been in business since the 1800s.

Taylor is far too modern to use nitro. They use the most modern techniques, material, etc. (except for the wood) to make the guitars. They are actually very innovative and will use what works, not what people have used in the past that worked.
Author:  Chris Pile [ Tue Jan 12, 2021 11:28 am ]
Post subject:  Re: How would you repair this much checking?
FULLERPLAST....
Fuller: from Fullerton, California - former home of Fender.
Plast: from plastic

The old Fender stuff looked like it was dipped in the stuff, not sprayed with it.
Author:  Tai Fu [ Tue Jan 12, 2021 11:59 am ]
Post subject:  Re: How would you repair this much checking?
A common misconception is that fullerplast is yellow. It is actually colorless (and most likely stays this way), but Fender stains the body before they dip it in fullerplast. They do this no matter what color they will paint the body with later... it's all to save on labor.

If I have to guess, is Taylor used fullerplast (which cures with MEKP catalyst) before they used UV cured stuff which cures with UV. That probably means no stacks of body sitting around to dry, and that bodies would go into the paint booth, sprayed, then flashed and dried immediately. Even if the finish or the setup costs a lot, the labor and space saving alone is worth the cost.

The use of fullerplast or UV cured finish also simplifies finishing process. No more spending time filling grains, messing around with epoxy (which sands poorly). Just spray a sufficiently thick coat of the stuff and it fills every imperfection, binding gaps, wood defects, inlay gaps, etc.. All of this saves cost.

Martin uses nitro because they were founded in the 1800s so are stuck doing things traditionally because that is what worked. But even Martin is starting to use more modern finishes too. You realize not having guitars sitting around for months waiting to cure (not to mention massive amount of VOC released) really saves companies money.
Author:  doncaparker [ Tue Jan 12, 2021 12:57 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: How would you repair this much checking?
Just a math quibble: Nitrocellulose lacquer was not invented until 1921. It became popular in the auto industry, and not much later the major musical instrument makers started using it. So, the point of nitro being traditional is a fair point, but that tradition only goes back 100 years before now, at the most.

Also, there are other current guitar companies (smaller and younger than Martin) that use nitro. I think it is safe to assume they use it because they believe their target customers want nitro.

I'm not an advocate for the use of nitro; I favor more modern finishes. I just recognize that there are some stubborn guitar buyers out there. Not all, but some.
Author:  bluescreek [ Tue Jan 12, 2021 1:34 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: How would you repair this much checking?
Martin uses Nitro I think they turned to this in 1923. The big advantage to nitro is the ability to repair. You can't fix the polys they will have to be stripped and refinned. I know Glu boost claims it is good but you can;t get the poly to relink so this is not going to be an invisible repair.
Author:  Tai Fu [ Tue Jan 12, 2021 2:05 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: How would you repair this much checking?
Well another argument is that poly doesn't age as well as nitro (subjective I guess). But in Taiwan I've yet to find any nitro that works. The stuff on the market is far too gummy, and it stays gummy for a long time, I mean a looonnnggg time. And you have to try so many different formulations and after years of testing you might find something. Then they'll go and change the formula on you and you gotta start over. At least in the states you have McFaddens/Seagraves which is known to work. Even some pre-cat stuff that is easily repaired but don't take half a year to cure.

So over here, poly works, auto makers swear by it, and one can does at least 3 guitars, for finishing and pore filling (because poly has such thick build property, pore filling is largely not needed). Couldn't ask for anything better. And it's easy to find. Just ask them what domestic auto makers use and they'll point you to the right thing. Over here nobody cares for nitro because only weekend warrior furniture finishers use them, and auto makers aren't allowed to use them (why would they? the stuff would just rub off if used outdoors).

I should also mention the stuff I use (it is a Japanese brand) is UV resistant, meaning it would prevent wood like purpleheart, padauk, etc. from discoloration. Epoxy fill can't be used at all because epoxy has turned it very dark (don't ask how I know).
Author:  Pmaj7 [ Sat Jan 23, 2021 5:57 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: How would you repair this much checking?
Tai Fu wrote:
But in Taiwan I've yet to find any nitro that works.
we were using TOA nitro in Vietnam in the '90s-early 2000's and it worked pretty good. A little brittle but pretty tough. Not sure if it's available there and who knows if the formulas have changed.



Pat
Author:  Tai Fu [ Sat Jan 23, 2021 7:58 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: How would you repair this much checking?
Pmaj7 wrote:
Tai Fu wrote:
But in Taiwan I've yet to find any nitro that works.
we were using TOA nitro in Vietnam in the '90s-early 2000's and it worked pretty good. A little brittle but pretty tough. Not sure if it's available there and who knows if the formulas have changed.



Pat


It's just a lot of trial and error and I found the brittle stuff worked well and took a good polish, while the not so brittle stuff tends to stay gummy for months and months. Yea, nitro is supposed to be brittle and will continue to shrink forever. Seriously the modern stuff is just so much better. Like the Japanese 2K stuff called NAX I use is used by various major auto manufacturers in Taiwan. It full cures in about a week MAX, cures hard but still remains somewhat flexible. It is UV resistant, it will NOT check ever. It also builds really well meaning I don't need to worry about grain filling.
Author:  Pmaj7 [ Sat Jan 23, 2021 8:53 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: How would you repair this much checking?
Wow, sounds like the holy grail!

Pat
Author:  Tai Fu [ Mon Jan 25, 2021 4:32 am ]
Post subject:  Re: How would you repair this much checking?
Don't be scared of 2K, and as long as you don't put them on too thick you should have no problem. Actually the 2K I used actually burns in a little... at least while it's fresh (applied within the last month). I damaged a guitar because of a ham fisted neighbor and I was able to do an invisible repair by adding more 2K finish over the damage, then sand and buff.

It builds so well that unless the grain on the wood is very big (think swamp ash) the finish will fill it after a few coats.
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