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tips for a total beginner
http://w-ww.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10101&t=53958		 Page 1 of 3
Author:  Travis [ Mon Feb 15, 2021 8:44 am ]
Post subject:  tips for a total beginner
Hi everyone,

I'm sorry if there are other threads on this topic - feel free to boot me. I'm a total beginner - as in, I've spent roughly 24 hours just thinking about becoming a luthier. I'm middle age, work an office job, and have played guitar most of my life. I am modestly handy but by no means an expert woodworker.

I want to pursue this, very much. Not to make millions of dollars but just out of love for the craft.

Where do I start - what books, classes, etc. are worth it and which ones are a waste of time? Any and all advice is welcomed. I know this isn't something that gets learned overnight; I'm interested in doing the process right - my focus isn't on the final product.

Thank you so much for your time and insight.

Travis
Author:  Glen H [ Mon Feb 15, 2021 9:03 am ]
Post subject:  Re: tips for a total beginner
Read up as much as you can. Get a solid understanding of the geometry before touching wood. I read up for a year before my first and don’t regret it.
Author:  Travis [ Mon Feb 15, 2021 9:05 am ]
Post subject:  Re: tips for a total beginner
Thank you, Koa.

Would you be willing to share your reading list, or a selection?
Author:  doncaparker [ Mon Feb 15, 2021 10:24 am ]
Post subject:  Re: tips for a total beginner
There are two well-trod paths for the first time builder: Build a kit, or start from scratch.

If you build a kit, there are several options. John Hall at Blues Creek Guitars sells a Martin type kit. Stewart MacDonald sells several. A few other OLF sponsors might sell kits with various stages of things having been done for you, like Luthiers Mercantile. You can't go wrong with these.

I have never built a kit; I started building from scratch. I preferred it, but it is not everybody's best way of learning these new skills. A kit lets you dip a more cautious toe into these waters your first time out.

In terms of reading, I still recommend the Cumpiano/Natelson book entitled Guitarmaking: Tradition and Technology. Lots of procedures are not the current way of doing things, but it is very, very detailed, and it is a great way to build your first guitar from scratch with a minimum of specialized tools.

For online instruction, I highly recommend the Robbie O'Brien website, and particularly for you, his full course on building an acoustic guitar. It costs a few hundred dollars, but it is the next best thing to having an in-person learning experience.

You can have an in-person learning experience; but you will have to wait a few more months until the pandemic is under control. And those courses are not cheap.

There are plenty of other great resources (the Gore/Gilet books on guitar making are the top of the line), but for a beginner, these are the paths I recommend.

Have a great time!
Author:  Ernie Kleinman [ Mon Feb 15, 2021 10:31 am ]
Post subject:  Re: tips for a total beginner
Here is some free advice from my former shop tech instructor . mr Foster . always practice on scrap. Its one way to save yourself from the pain of ruining expensive tonewood. Since you are in NY . you can readily buy spruce an pine , hemlock an fir are stringy for beginners. IMHO. Taking a shop/luthiery class, can give you exposure to the use of hand and power tools an safety issues. Practice safety at all times chisels , knives bs an ts are extremely noisy dusty , dirty and dangerous especially if you dont know what your doing.Good luck in your new hobby!
Author:  Ken Nagy [ Mon Feb 15, 2021 10:40 am ]
Post subject:  Re: tips for a total beginner
There are all kinds of ways to learn. Some like classes. Some like books. You can watch a lot of stuff on YouTube, but even if it is good, it's just watching. I started making violins by buying some wood and printing out a plan I found online. I kept building and found some books on making, and then a forum, and they got better. I have my own way of making.

Then I decided to make a guitar. I got a book on how to build a arch top. The main thing I didn't understand was the neck geometry, and it didn't go too much into that. But it showed binding which I'd never done. I also found this forum to see what others did, and ask questions, and bounce ideas off of.

Now I'm hooked.

I think that a kit would be a good idea for many people. No, I've never built a kit guitar. I didn't have a real violin or guitar in front of me, and still don't! Many people make instruments, but use manufactured necks, fretboards, or both, I don't know how they come. It might have worked for me, but I wonder. I like changing things. I can't just do what they say. But having some of the parts formed means you don't have to figure out what size, and what kind of stock to buy. You can just build, and doing that you are already one step up on someone planning.

By all means, keep reading this forum. Buy some books. I had the Cumpiano book a few years before I made a guitar, but sold it at a garage sale. The guy was excited to buy it. I don't know why I sold it! I don't think I had any idea about how to build a guitar. Buy books that interest you. Archtops are different from flat tops from classicals. Watch videos.

Decide what you want to build first, and get started planning. I'm big on planning because I usually make just from pictures of something online. If you have a plan, you have a better chance of success.
Author:  George L [ Mon Feb 15, 2021 10:45 am ]
Post subject:  Re: tips for a total beginner
Travis,
I can't tell if you're thinking of quitting your day job to become a luthier or just want to learn how to make instruments for fun. If its the former, take a number and go to the back of a very long and slow moving line. For the latter, you could do worse than to spend some time poking around here: https://www.cumpiano.com/
Author:  SteveSmith [ Mon Feb 15, 2021 10:46 am ]
Post subject:  Re: tips for a total beginner
As Ernie said, you will need decent woodworking skills. If you can't find a luthiery calass then you can look for some kind of woodworking class so you can be sure how to effectively and safely work with your tools.

Otherwise Don's recommendations are good. In addition there is a wealth of information available on this site once you take the time to identify the folks who know what they're doing. Robbie Obrien is a good source.

I also started building from scratch but I had a finish carpentry and furniture building background. A kit from John Hall would be an excellent start and he is great about answering questions.

Oh yeah, hope you're talking about doing this mostly for fun. Don't quit your day job ;)
Author:  Travis [ Mon Feb 15, 2021 10:58 am ]
Post subject:  Re: tips for a total beginner
You all are amazing - thank you for this awesome information. I really appreciate you taking the time to share your insights with a newcomer like me. Please keep it coming!

I am old enough, and self-aware enough about my skills (and lack thereof), to NOT be planning on quitting my day job!
Author:  jfmckenna [ Mon Feb 15, 2021 12:29 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: tips for a total beginner
I think we are all assuming that you want to build steel string acoustic guitars but that is an important question. Cumpiano's book covers both steel and nylon guitars and as mentioned is really THE classic construction book out there. Trevor Gore's book is a more modern approach and definitely worth the investment. Somogyi books as well.

My advice - jump right in and do it.

Speaking from my own experience, the first guitar I built was an electric guitar. I wanted to build an acoustic but figure this would be a good place to start. That I would at least learn how to make a neck, do a fret job, finish and so on. Plus it was cool to have an electric guitar. Then I built my first guitar right out of Sloanes book. Prior to that I had never even picked up a chisel. I still have my first electric and acoustic guitar too which I built in 1993 and I still play my acoustic guitar. It looks like hell but it sounds and plays great and is a pure joy to play knowing I built it from scratch.

Another bit of advice is, don't expect your first guitar to be good at all. I think most of us who have kept up with this hobby, and probably even the pro's, would say it takes ten guitars before you can have a product that is sellable. But I have seen fantastic firsts before too so who knows.
Author:  Dave m2 [ Mon Feb 15, 2021 12:33 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: tips for a total beginner
Worth mentioning that there are many ways to build. Each author tends to have their preferred method, there is not really a single right one. But the systems are often incompatible so if you do follow a particular method then stick to it and don't try to mix and match until you have a knowledge base.

Depends a lot on your background and interests. If you are interested in the science/engineering of how guitars work then the Gore Gilet books are unsurpassed.

By the way for Classical guitars it is hard to beat the Roy Courtnall book.

As people have said practice each step on scrap. And be prepared for the mistakes - you will make many but you have to be able to work through them and try again without getting too angry.

I think everyone here thinks this is one of the most satisfying activities. Playing a guitar that you have made is wonderful.

Cheers Dave
Author:  Michaeldc [ Mon Feb 15, 2021 1:01 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: tips for a total beginner
+1 for the Cumpiano book. It’s very accessible and doesn’t really require a ton of tools, jigs, or fixtures to get your first instrument under your belt. The Gore books are amazing but they may cause a beginner to get overwhelmed and never start at all. The rabbit holes run deep with this pursuit!

Welcome aboard, M
Author:  Travis [ Mon Feb 15, 2021 1:51 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: tips for a total beginner
Thanks again! The Cumpiano book is now on its way. I had thought that some sort of hands-on experience/apprenticeship was mandatory - I'm happy to hear at least a couple of you suggest otherwise. I'm sure it's preferred but it's just not practical for me for various reasons. It's pretty intimidating being at the beginning of the journey so appreciate all the feedback I've gotten from all of you!
Author:  runamuck [ Mon Feb 15, 2021 1:55 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: tips for a total beginner
Like many others, I started with the Cumpiano book. Guitar making methods have evolved since it was written and there are some ways of doing things in there that are obsolete, in my opinion. Still, it's got plenty of info that is timeless. I'd say its major drawback, along with most other books on building, is that it doesn't answer many questions about why good or great guitars are built the way they are.

For that, here's what I'd recommend:

https://goreguitars.com.au/main/page_th ... _book.html
Author:  Glen H [ Mon Feb 15, 2021 2:07 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: tips for a total beginner
Travis wrote:
Thank you, Koa.

Would you be willing to share your reading list, or a selection?

Hi Travis, I read every one that I could buy. This was before the in-depth treatises available now were written. Cumpianos book was my go-to when I started number 1 (20+ yrs ago).
Author:  Clay S. [ Mon Feb 15, 2021 2:26 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: tips for a total beginner
You could start out with some fun easily constructed projects that will help you understand some of the basics of how things work. Cigar box ukes are a simple quick to make project to get yore feet wet. You need a cigar box but can find necks, fingerboards, and tuners on eBay for not too much money.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Tenor-Ukulele- ... Sw1a5fN1BF
https://www.ebay.com/itm/21-23-26-Inch- ... SwAhtfbAop
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Ukulele-tuning ... SwwkZftIh3
You could then try your hand at building a mountain dulcimer, either from a kit or scratch. It is a little more complicated, and will further your skills.
Before risking a lot of expensive wood, you could build a Formica (HPL) back and sided guitar with a lumberyard cedar or spruce top (or an inexpensive "A" grade top from a luthier supply. Martin guitar uses HPL for their cheaper models, and you can make a decent sounding instrument with it. It can be thermoformed with a heat gun by hand. You can buy wood grain HPL from the big box stores or scrounge scraps from a cabinet shop. A 4X8 sheet would be enough to build several guitars and dulcimers:
https://www.homedepot.com/p/FORMICA-4-f ... /202903678
You need not break the bank learning the craft - that will come later after you have become addicted! gaah laughing6-hehe
Author:  Travis [ Mon Feb 15, 2021 2:58 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: tips for a total beginner
Thanks for the reading recommendations Glen and runamok! And I love the pictures Clay, especially the cigar box guitars - very cool.
Author:  doncaparker [ Mon Feb 15, 2021 3:10 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: tips for a total beginner
Travis--

I had mentioned the Robbie O'Brien course on building acoustic steel string guitars. Here is a link:

https://obrienguitars.com/courses/acoustic

You pay $285.00 USD and get almost 25 hours of very well done instruction. If you want to see someone build a guitar from scratch, using current, relevant methods, this is a fantastic course for you. In person, this would cost a whole lot more. I have built 8 guitars so far, all from scratch. I decided to buy this series after #8, so I could fill out my education a bit. I am watching a lot of things I already know how to do, but I am learning a lot of little things that are helping me improve my process.

Some inside jokes that you will only get after you watch some of Robbie's videos:
1. Good lord, he has the unluckiest friends.
2. Friendly plastic is a sarcastic name (his attempted use of it is the only place I have seen Robbie cuss so far in the series).
3. Utility knife blade, where have you been all my guitar building life?

The last bit of wisdom (such as it is) that I can offer is a repeat of something said a few times above: Let go of the idea of building either a perfect guitar or your dream guitar the first time you build one. Building a functional, good guitar the first time out is a very realistic goal. Building a spotless, fantastic guitar is not. You learn best by making mistakes and learning how to avoid them the next time. Just let that process happen. There will be times when you bungle a part so badly that you are better off scrapping it and starting a new one, but most times (for the first few guitars), you are way better off as a student if you accept the flaws, move on, and learn from them.

Good luck!
Author:  rbuddy [ Mon Feb 15, 2021 3:35 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: tips for a total beginner
I liked Cumpiano, and read it along with Kinkead and Bogdanovich (classical). It was nice to bounce back and forth between them. Some times one or the other does a better job of describing a process, or has better pictures. And offers different ways of getting it done that might have more appeal. The Robbie O'Brien videos are very good too.

I had a long history with wood so jumped right in to a fiddle build, then banjos, acoustic guitars and will try an electric soon.

If you can afford a "school" it's great but they cost enough to secure a lot of nice hand tools.

Watch lots of youtubes, join some guitar web sites. Some do more detailed build threads than others. You can easily spend a year or two just reading and watching and thinking through the process.

Probably the most important thing to learn is how wood reacts to you and tools, cause if you don't get that down you'll want another hobby. So, get a good neck vise, straight edge, a plane, some chisels, a couple carving tools and a block of wood and carve a duck or something. You will learn a lot.

Stewart Macdonald has a solid wood kit with a body already glued up for about $400 with lots of learning left to do on it.

Next, a pre bent side kit would be a good follow-up. By now you probably spent $500 on some hand tools and $1000 on 2 kits but hey, you should have 2 guitars and some tools you'll use for the second half of your life.

And you're ready for a scratch build. But you can jump right in to that too if you want.

Good luck on your adventure!
Brian
Author:  Clay S. [ Mon Feb 15, 2021 3:50 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: tips for a total beginner
doncaparker wrote:
Travis--

The last bit of wisdom (such as it is) that I can offer is a repeat of something said a few times above: Let go of the idea of building either a perfect guitar or your dream guitar the first time you build one. Building a functional, good guitar the first time out is a very realistic goal. Building a spotless, fantastic guitar is not. You learn best by making mistakes and learning how to avoid them the next time. Just let that process happen. There will be times when you bungle a part so badly that you are better off scrapping it and starting a new one, but most times (for the first few guitars), you are way better off as a student if you accept the flaws, move on, and learn from them.

Good luck!


Good advice, and a good reason to not spend a lot on tools and materials "right off the bat". The Cumpiano/ Natelson book is nice in that they show how to do things with relatively few tools.
Author:  J De Rocher [ Mon Feb 15, 2021 4:15 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: tips for a total beginner
If there is any way that you can swing it, take a class in which you actually build an instrument. That is by far the fastest way to get up to speed and be able to build independently. The class I took in which I built my first steel string guitar gave me everything I needed to build them on my own (the first one I built on my own came out nice, if I do say so myself). The only prior woodworking experience I had had was framing houses so having fine woodworking experience is not a prerequisite to have success building guitars. The cost of in-person classes cover a wide range depending in part on teacher to student ratio. I've seen build classes for under $1000 with about ten students per class. My class had two students and cost $2500. That may sound like a lot, but that was the single most effective and valuable investment I've made by a huge margin.

A class also gives you the experience of building an instrument start to finish in a relatively short time. You find out quickly if building is something you like or not. It also makes it to easier to remember how the process works as a whole.

Books and videos are great resources, but they lack important information that you can get from a hands-on class. Books and videos tell you what to do but generally don't tell you specifically what not to do which can be just as important. There are also tricks that don't make it into books that can make things easier or faster, or help avoid mistakes. Those come up naturally in the process of being shown in person how to build a guitar. That said, I agree that the Cumpiano book is a good resource. I've also bought some of Robbie Obrien's instructional videos to expand on what I learned in my class and they were great. John Hall's videos on youtube (Blues Creek Guitars) have been a great source of extra information too and I've picked up a few cool tricks from his videos.

Another big benefit of a class in which you build a guitar is that you can see in practice which tools are must-have tools and which ones are just nice-to-have tools which is very helpful in deciding where to start spending your cash when equipping your shop to build on your own.
Author:  Skarsaune [ Mon Feb 15, 2021 4:50 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: tips for a total beginner
Come on in, the water's fine! :mrgreen:



I started with a kit - at the time, Martin would put their kits on sale and if you joined their owner's club, it worked out to about 50% off. At that rate, I bought two, figuring if I screwed the pooch entirely I could start over on the second.

I play the first one all the time and I built the 2nd left handed for a buddy, who also plays it all the time. Neither are perfect, but mine's good enough I play it proudly in public.

The kit was a way to dip a toe in the pool. Step by step I've transitioned to scratch builds. It let me take on techniques or add piece of equipment a bit at a time and has worked out well.

I also studied the topic for a year before buying those kits. The Cumpiano book was the first but I read everything I could get my hands on. Hint - if you join StewMac's StewMax club, books are 50% off. Pays for itself on the first $300 book you buy, lol.

In-person classes didn't compute for me; all I could find were $2500 and up. I did take a one day inlay class in person, and several of Robbie O'Brien's classes on line ( you can take his classes piece by piece if you like).

It seems that folks who have the gumption to carry a guitar build through to completion end up building more than one. It's a significant time investment - 100 hours is the number commonly put out there, with half of that being finishing. I'm on 7 or 8 now.

Like I said, come on in!
Author:  Terence Kennedy [ Mon Feb 15, 2021 5:02 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: tips for a total beginner
This question comes up regularly on this forum. My answer remains pretty much the same.

Build a kit guitar from a reputable vendor (John Hall/Blues Creek, StewMac, LMI ) and see if it grabs you. They come with good instructions. (I don’t know if Martin’s instructions are better now but in the late 90’s when I built mine they were pretty bad.)

If it does light your fire build a few more kits and then take a building course. You will get a lot more out of the course having experience with the kits and it will shave years off your learning curve building from scratch.

When you do start building from scratch don’t start with Brazilian :)

Good luck!
Author:  doncaparker [ Mon Feb 15, 2021 5:43 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: tips for a total beginner
Travis—

One more suggestion, and this one depends on whether you own (or have easy access to) stationary woodworking tools like a bandsaw, table saw, drill press, belt/disk sander, drum sander, etc. You can build a guitar without these tools, but that increases your need to have good hand tool skills and good enough hand tools. An option is to join a local woodworking club with a well equipped shop. Once you pass a safety course and pay dues, you should have access to a decent shop. Moreover, there are a lot of camaraderie opportunities in such a club. Of course, like everything, this is temporarily on hold until we get the pandemic under control. Just another option, in case you are not yet tooled up.
Author:  Ken Nagy [ Mon Feb 15, 2021 7:32 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: tips for a total beginner
As far as tools go, I used hand saws, planes, chisel and gouged for my archtop. I cut out the back and belly with my small bandsaw, but my fret saw and coping saw could work. The only thing special I needed was a bending iron. I had a small one for violins and it workers
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