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| Compression fretting with bar frets http://w-ww.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10101&t=53992 |
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| Author: | nathanpeirson [ Tue Mar 02, 2021 1:11 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Compression fretting with bar frets |
Hi all, I mentioned in a previous topic that I have neck relief issues with an 1860's Martin. The action is 11/64th at the 12th fret. The straight edge nearly touches the top of the guitar at the bridge position and only rests on the 1st and 12th frets. The question is, how do you decide which fret to start on and which size fret to use. The current bar frets appear to be about .048 and .05. |
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| Author: | Brad Goodman [ Fri Mar 05, 2021 12:19 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Compression fretting with bar frets |
It sounds like it needs a neck reset.... |
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| Author: | Mark Mc [ Fri Mar 05, 2021 5:00 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Compression fretting with bar frets |
Yes, that sounds like a neck angle issue, rather then a relief problem - given that a straightedge runs from 1-12 without touching anything in between, but then lands well below the top of the bridge. I am thinking like Brad. Or are we misunderstanding you? |
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| Author: | bluescreek [ Fri Mar 05, 2021 6:36 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Compression fretting with bar frets |
having done many of these get us some more measurements a with the strings loosend with a straight edge on the 1st and 12th what is the neck relief? b then with a straight edge where is the fret plane in relation to the bridge c how high are the strings at the 12th fret d what strings are on it gut nylon steel ? it is very possible you have a number of issues and without all the info we are guessing so if you need a neck adjustment the neck relief needs to be knows and where the neck curves are most likely the 7th fret up so at this point lets get the info and move to the neck step also is this an ice cream heel or a carved heel? |
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| Author: | jfmckenna [ Fri Mar 05, 2021 8:50 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Compression fretting with bar frets |
If that action is that high due to a neck with severe relief then no amount of compression fretting will fix that imho. |
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| Author: | bluescreek [ Fri Mar 05, 2021 9:14 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Compression fretting with bar frets |
actually yes that can be pulled back the bar frets are all together different from Tees. I have done a number of these from the pre 1890 era some were left in attics for years. I suspect a few things going on. if this is an ice cream cone heel that may also be failing in either case this is a job for one with experience of these necks |
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| Author: | jfmckenna [ Fri Mar 05, 2021 10:35 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Compression fretting with bar frets |
bluescreek wrote: actually yes that can be pulled back the bar frets are all together different from Tees. I have done a number of these from the pre 1890 era some were left in attics for years. I suspect a few things going on. if this is an ice cream cone heel that may also be failing in either case this is a job for one with experience of these necks Ok, I stand corrected then. I have never done it with bar frets. Do you have some way of forcing the neck back to open the fret slots up? What is the technique there? |
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| Author: | jfmckenna [ Fri Mar 05, 2021 10:38 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Compression fretting with bar frets |
BTW does anyone know of a tutorial on resetting one of these necks? I have a guitar just like this one in my shop now. It doesn't need a neck reset but I have never done a Martin with the ice cream cone heel before and it looks to be tricky. I did an old Viennese guitar with a similar design and the neck actually had a veneer wrapped around the shaft which was challenging to deal with. |
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| Author: | bluescreek [ Fri Mar 05, 2021 12:37 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Compression fretting with bar frets |
yes I have one on my blues creek you tube channel as for the compression fretting , on a bar fret you really do have a lot more contact than you so with Tee frets. On Tee frets the slot is .023 and often the barbs to more of the pushing than the tang on bar frets they contact the full slot and you really are pushing the neck back . There is an art to this but you can work the neck very well with them but they are a lot of work. In tee frets the crown is the same and on bar frets the frets can vary in with as the frets are full thickness and are smaller than the T frets. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QjndRsvuvf8 here I repair the heel the reset is the same basic procedure of the dovetail as it is a dovetail |
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| Author: | jfmckenna [ Fri Mar 05, 2021 2:00 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Compression fretting with bar frets |
Thanks John. That's very cool. Incredible craftsmanship and a complicated joint that obviously proves the test of time. The one I have in now has the same markings, the upside down neck block with the solid linings and the cloth side tapes that go over the linings. I'll have to double check but I think it only has 4 back braces though. |
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| Author: | bluescreek [ Fri Mar 05, 2021 3:23 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Compression fretting with bar frets |
feel free to call me they are great guitars. I think they sound great |
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| Author: | nathanpeirson [ Mon Mar 08, 2021 1:20 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Compression fretting with bar frets |
bluescreek wrote: having done many of these get us some more measurements a with the strings loosend with a straight edge on the 1st and 12th what is the neck relief? b then with a straight edge where is the fret plane in relation to the bridge c how high are the strings at the 12th fret d what strings are on it gut nylon steel ? it is very possible you have a number of issues and without all the info we are guessing so if you need a neck adjustment the neck relief needs to be knows and where the neck curves are most likely the 7th fret up so at this point lets get the info and move to the neck step also is this an ice cream heel or a carved heel? a The neck relief at the 6th fret (without string tension) is .018 and that is the lowest. b The neck plane can be seen in the attached photo c The strings at the 12th fret are at 3/16, and that is consistent from bass to treble tuned a step lower (D) and the same 2 steps lower (C) d I am experimenting with strings (all nylon). Currently the 3 bass are D'Addario Pro Arte nylon core EJ49, the 3 trebles are THomastik- Infeld John Pearse folk, rope core nylon wound. The neck heel is ice cream cone. I m |
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| Author: | nathanpeirson [ Mon Mar 08, 2021 1:29 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Compression fretting with bar frets |
bluescreek wrote: feel free to call me they are great guitars. I think they sound great I am truly amazed at both the craftsmanship and the tone. I've watched your video on the ice cream cone heel and your seminar on compression fretting. The previous owner contacted Martin a few years back for information and they told him it was a style 2-21. I took more exacting measurements and information, such as bracing style, etc and they told me it was a 17. No serial number. CF Martin & Co New York stamped on the back strap, neck heel (although upside down) and below the neck heel (barely visible). I appreciate all the info. |
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| Author: | jfmckenna [ Mon Mar 08, 2021 2:17 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Compression fretting with bar frets |
Nathan, do you have an internal pic of the bracing on that one? I'm curious to see if it looks like the one I am working on which I have not seen in any of the literature I have or online. |
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| Author: | bluescreek [ Mon Mar 08, 2021 2:21 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Compression fretting with bar frets |
yes this needs attention can you call me I can help with advice for you also take pics of the insides I have found to my ear the ladder and fan braces sound better on these than the X |
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| Author: | nathanpeirson [ Mon Mar 08, 2021 3:08 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Compression fretting with bar frets |
Here is a shot of the bracing. I think you can make it out. |
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| Author: | bluescreek [ Mon Mar 08, 2021 5:30 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Compression fretting with bar frets |
well done thanks |
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| Author: | jfmckenna [ Tue Mar 09, 2021 8:27 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Compression fretting with bar frets |
Similar to the one I have on my bench except the lower cross strut is at a higher angle and it has no finger braces. I'm actually surprised that you were able to get a ghost image of the braces. When spruce gets really old like that it turns opaque like torrified wood does. The one I have is totally dark even with a very bright light in there.  
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| Author: | oatesguitars [ Thu Mar 18, 2021 7:46 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Compression fretting with bar frets |
If you are convinced that the problem entirely in the neck, then using a heat blanket ( the type you get from the pharmacy for lower back pain) works well with a 30lb weight suspended from the middle of the neck. Leave it there for 4 hours on medium heat and the neck should be close to where you want it. I’ve done this a number of times and have been successful every time. I’m sure there are a number of people who will jump all over me for this suggestion, but to me, it sounds like less of a reset problem or bracing problem and more that the neck is just too bowed. It may take less time or it may take substantially more time but eventually that neck will bend back. One important thing though, when you have the neck back to where you want it, turn off the heat but leave the weight on it for at least 4 more hours as it cools or it will creep back. |
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