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Early Guitars
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Author:  Ken Nagy [ Sun Mar 21, 2021 1:01 pm ]
Post subject:  Early Guitars
I got a set of plans for Voboam Guitars. The plans, solera, and hundreds of combinations of decorations. In the baroque they were all about decorations. I had the large ones printed out the other day, and I noticed the photos on pdf that came with it. Paintings from the period that are very detailed, and show the patterns of the inlay.

They also show one strung up as a 5 string, with two wound strings. in 1775.

Attachment:
Screen Shot 2021-03-21 at 9.33.55 AM.png


A similar design but with 5 double courses of gut from 1715.

Attachment:
Screen Shot 2021-03-21 at 9.36.33 AM.png


And a much simpler design, but nice side wood, 5 double courses, but the low A's look like wound, from 1759.

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Screen Shot 2021-03-21 at 9.26.39 AM.png



So it seems like wound strings became available at least in the mid 1700's. By the late 1700's they started switching to larger, single stings. They all seemed to have gut frets, but the 5 string COULD have been switched over and some pegs not used, and maybe plugged.

Anyway, I should have a lot of fun building a simple instrument, and then making it complicated.
Author:  ballbanjos [ Sun Mar 21, 2021 4:23 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Early Guitars
I was always fascinated by the Joachim Tielke guitars and lutes for their extraordinary decorations. I got to put my hands on a few in person at the Smithsonian years ago and was wowed by the craftsmanship. I have no idea how they sounded, but man they were impressive visually. Of course, I'm still a banjo guy at heart and quality decoration counts.

Dave
Author:  J De Rocher [ Sun Mar 21, 2021 6:18 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Early Guitars
Are you familiar with the book The Illustrated History of the Guitar by Alexander Bellow? If not, I bet you would like it. It's a good read and has lots of photos of guitars dating back to the 1500s. I think it's out of print, but copies come up on ebay from time to time and it can be found online at some used book stores.

It has two photos of the only known remaining guitar by Rene Voboam built in 1641 and a photo of a guitar built in 1690 by Alexander Voboam ("probably a relative of Rene Voboam").
Author:  Michael.N. [ Mon Mar 22, 2021 9:21 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Early Guitars
I'm making a baroque guitar at the moment, 630 mm string length which is quite short as far as baroque guitars go. I've based it on late French examples but it's not a copy as such. It will have the re-entrant tuning. Many years ago I made a copy of the Alex. Voboam with the fancy edging chevrons and the inverted wedding cake rosette, ebony veneered neck. It was an awful lot of work especially when I had to make around 20 punches for the parchment rosette. I sold some commercially but a lot less ornate than that one. I also have the plan drawn by Stephen Barber of that Rene Voboam guitar. Highly detailed plan, extremely well drawn. He told me that drawing up the plan was very much a labour of love.
Author:  Clay S. [ Mon Mar 22, 2021 9:31 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Early Guitars
The parchment roses are really cool! Do you have any pictures of the ones you made? Can you explain the process of how they are done? The pictures I have seen of them really blow me away.
Author:  Michael.N. [ Mon Mar 22, 2021 11:46 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Early Guitars
Not quite as difficult as they first appear, well at least once you have all the tooling. I made many punches, different sizes and shapes. The principle is virtually the same as those that cut the two holes in A4 paper except I was hitting my punches with a hammer. It is a lot of work though. If you aren't making them on a fairly regular basis it all becomes a lengthy process. Commercially it wouldn't make any sense, it would be more economical to buy one from someone like Elena dal Cortivo who does make some incredibly well made roses.
Here's mine based on the Voboam.
Author:  jfmckenna [ Mon Mar 22, 2021 1:37 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Early Guitars
Michael.N. wrote:
Not quite as difficult as they first appear, well at least once you have all the tooling. I made many punches, different sizes and shapes. The principle is virtually the same as those that cut the two holes in A4 paper except I was hitting my punches with a hammer. It is a lot of work though. If you aren't making them on a fairly regular basis it all becomes a lengthy process. Commercially it wouldn't make any sense, it would be more economical to buy one from someone like Elena dal Cortivo who does make some incredibly well made roses.
Here's mine based on the Voboam.


I have one of these type instruments on my radar but honestly I cannot even imagine making something like that.
Author:  Clay S. [ Mon Mar 22, 2021 2:52 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Early Guitars
Hi Michael,
That's one that blows me away. Beautiful work!
Are there any online tutorials a person could use to learn how to make them?
I visited Elena dal Cortivo's website. She does some lovely work.

" It is a lot of work though. If you aren't making them on a fairly regular basis it all becomes a lengthy process. Commercially it wouldn't make any sense"
Kind of like guitar making! bliss
Author:  Ken Nagy [ Mon Mar 22, 2021 3:50 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Early Guitars
The set of plans I got has 3 full size A0 plans, an A1 sheet with a solara and patterns, 4 pages of patterns for rosettes on A4, and 5, A4 pages with patterns for inlays and headstock. And another BABY guitar in A for 4 or 5 courses plus the rosette, and then 9 photos of the paintings that you can zoom right in on. I thought it was a deal for 40 euro, so I asked for it as a gift.

The scale length is 676.7 mm He drew it up using lignes and pounces, some archaic system that actually seems to work.

One of the rosettes looks like that wedding cake! He says it is from Jacques Dumesnil Paris 1648. 4 double tiers, three rings, and a whole bunch of little layered cakes, 34 of them to punch out.

I went on his blog just now to get the page that he talks about it, and I found that he has a plan for one like the Stauffer. He didn't have it before. The Stauffer is pretty simple though, besides the neck, and tuners.

Jan says that there are about 250 combinations you can come up with. That isn't counting different wood for inlays. It's worth a look:

https://thedutchluthier.wordpress.com/2 ... or-a-king/

Michael, Jan glues on the bridge early. Obviously you can't clamp through the sound hole. I was wondering, what kind of finish do you use on the belly? Would you glue the mustaches on before finish. edit, I see that Jan glues on the ebony mustaches just before finish.
Author:  bcombs510 [ Mon Mar 22, 2021 4:14 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Early Guitars
Interesting thread. I found this trying to search for parchment rose - https://www.vihuelademano.com/rosesinvihuelas.htm

I could see doing lazo en la tapa with the CNC but then... that’s not really “doing it”. ;)


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
Author:  ballbanjos [ Mon Mar 22, 2021 5:29 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Early Guitars
Michael.N. wrote:
Not quite as difficult as they first appear, well at least once you have all the tooling. I made many punches, different sizes and shapes. The principle is virtually the same as those that cut the two holes in A4 paper except I was hitting my punches with a hammer. It is a lot of work though. If you aren't making them on a fairly regular basis it all becomes a lengthy process. Commercially it wouldn't make any sense, it would be more economical to buy one from someone like Elena dal Cortivo who does make some incredibly well made roses.
Here's mine based on the Voboam.


Beautiful!

Dave
Author:  Ken Nagy [ Mon Mar 22, 2021 5:57 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Early Guitars
bcombs510 wrote:
Interesting thread. I found this trying to search for parchment rose - https://www.vihuelademano.com/rosesinvihuelas.htm

I could see doing lazo en la tapa with the CNC but then... that’s not really “doing it”. ;)


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


Then again, according to the records, the shop had 80 some sound boards complete with rosettes in stock! So they weren't even making them, they came fromVenice.

It seems like sawing and carving thin ones from lined wood would be easier than the fancy paper ones. I guess the lining was to prevent tear out? I have no idea how you even keep the paper ones clean.

Everything has to be clean work, like what Michael showed; even the tiles around the sound hole are pristine. They had good eyes, steady hands, and sharp knifes.
Author:  jfmckenna [ Mon Mar 22, 2021 7:42 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Early Guitars
bcombs510 wrote:
Interesting thread. I found this trying to search for parchment rose - https://www.vihuelademano.com/rosesinvihuelas.htm

I could see doing lazo en la tapa with the CNC but then... that’s not really “doing it”. ;)


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

Personally I wouldn't even. Again 100% my personal opinion, and we all know what opinions are good for, but to me it would disrespect the great masters. If I cannot pull it off then I am not deserving :)
Author:  Michael.N. [ Tue Mar 23, 2021 4:26 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Early Guitars
Ken Nagy wrote:
The set of plans I got has 3 full size A0 plans, an A1 sheet with a solara and patterns, 4 pages of patterns for rosettes on A4, and 5, A4 pages with patterns for inlays and headstock. And another BABY guitar in A for 4 or 5 courses plus the rosette, and then 9 photos of the paintings that you can zoom right in on. I thought it was a deal for 40 euro, so I asked for it as a gift.

The scale length is 676.7 mm He drew it up using lignes and pounces, some archaic system that actually seems to work.

One of the rosettes looks like that wedding cake! He says it is from Jacques Dumesnil Paris 1648. 4 double tiers, three rings, and a whole bunch of little layered cakes, 34 of them to punch out.

I went on his blog just now to get the page that he talks about it, and I found that he has a plan for one like the Stauffer. He didn't have it before. The Stauffer is pretty simple though, besides the neck, and tuners.

Jan says that there are about 250 combinations you can come up with. That isn't counting different wood for inlays. It's worth a look:

https://thedutchluthier.wordpress.com/2 ... or-a-king/

Michael, Jan glues on the bridge early. Obviously you can't clamp through the sound hole. I was wondering, what kind of finish do you use on the belly? Would you glue the mustaches on before finish. edit, I see that Jan glues on the ebony mustaches just before finish.


Traditionally the soundboard finish on lutes and period guitars was either nothing or very little. I tend to do a few wipe on sealer coats of very thin shellac or sandarac. That's it, very little.
Jan did a pattern for an historical parchment rose for me. Fairly obvious he used a computer graphics package. I was rather thankful because I don't have any of those graphical type skills. It wasn't a sunken multi layered rose but the flatter type with just a few layers. To be honest I much prefer those, just a bit less showy. I'm also fond of the mixed parchment and wood type, usually just one layer of parchment and a thin veneer of wood. My taste has changed over the years. I'm more into less fussy, simple but elegant design. I can no longer visit the large grand stately homes over here. After viewing a couple of rooms it's almost like I've eaten 10 chocolate easter eggs, one after the other!
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