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OLF Historian http://w-ww.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10101&t=54419	Page 1 of 2

Author:	Hesh [ Sun Sep 19, 2021 11:32 am ]
Post subject:	OLF Historian
Frequently I find myself remembering a post from over a decade ago which is amazing since I smoke pot every day. Anyway we have been around long enough now that the plethora of information in the archives is a treasure trove of great ideas and it's really too bad that not everyone knows how to find it. With that said an OLF historian might be a good idea. Now before you think that I want it I don't, I'm too busy and can only get back here a few times a week now. But there are lots of folks here who were here as long as I have been here and sometimes longer and maybe one of them would be interested in helping others search the archives and adding that historically input when it's appropriate? It's also an opportunity to revive all the priceless posts of those who came before us and had some really good ideas that endure and are used by folks like me now every day. My suggestion is to make this official, an Official Luthier's Forum Historian. Martin has one BTW and I think it's time we did too.

Author:	rbuddy [ Sun Sep 19, 2021 5:54 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: OLF Historian
Sounds like a great idea Hesh, but also sounds like a ton of work - especially if your love is building/repairing guitars more than OLF guitar history. I think there are things that can be done along that vein though. Simple things that would make the OLF search function work better. Like making sure a thread title included something pertinent to the subject of the thread. Titles like, "Check it out", or, "Never heard of this before" -- don't do much to help. How many times have you fallen for a click bait title to find nothing of value, OR worse yet missed a great thread because it had a title unassociated with the content.

Author:	wbergman [ Sun Sep 19, 2021 11:09 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: OLF Historian
I used to have a rule that anyone who complained about the office Christmas party arrangements got the job next year. Same goes for anyone who comes up with an idea that makes more work. So, Hesh gets the job.

Author:	Hesh [ Mon Sep 20, 2021 4:12 am ]
Post subject:	Re: OLF Historian
rbuddy wrote: Sounds like a great idea Hesh, but also sounds like a ton of work - especially if your love is building/repairing guitars more than OLF guitar history. I think there are things that can be done along that vein though. Simple things that would make the OLF search function work better. Like making sure a thread title included something pertinent to the subject of the thread. Titles like, "Check it out", or, "Never heard of this before" -- don't do much to help. How many times have you fallen for a click bait title to find nothing of value, OR worse yet missed a great thread because it had a title unassociated with the content. Brian you are spot on and great suggestion. Not to act like the OLF historian I don't want it but I remember when Mario hit the roof over a poorly titled thread too and he let us know in no uncertain terms. He said that he was a busy professional on a lunch hour and didn't need to weed though a bunch of poorly described BS when he was the one with the information and we were the ones who wanted it. He was right too. I feel the same way these days, please title your posts more descriptively and respect the rest of the forum in doing so. I don't see this, the historian as being anything formal just someone like Pat or Colin who has been here for a long time and may remember our prior discussions and perhaps offer them at times. That's all I envision, a person skilled at pulling from the past what's already here and representing it (posting) for the lates generation of suckers er.... Loofiers I'll add that the historian does not have to have been wasting their life away as long as I have here they can be someone newer but who has great knowledge of the archives.... Oh Woodie, oh Woodie

Author:	Hesh [ Mon Sep 20, 2021 4:13 am ]
Post subject:	Re: OLF Historian
wbergman wrote: I used to have a rule that anyone who complained about the office Christmas party arrangements got the job next year. Same goes for anyone who comes up with an idea that makes more work. So, Hesh gets the job. Hesh already did time as the first ever moderator of the OLF and I would not want to ever go there again You people suck Kidding of course, kind of.....

Author:	Rod True [ Wed Sep 22, 2021 3:39 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: OLF Historian
That would be a tough job, even for someone who's been here since the beginning...... There are probably 250+ posts just on glue alone. I did one many years ago and compiled all I had learned about glues, but that's probably buried waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay back in the archives. I just went searching for it and I can't find it.....

Author:	Hesh [ Thu Sep 23, 2021 4:01 am ]
Post subject:	Re: OLF Historian
Rod True wrote: That would be a tough job, even for someone who's been here since the beginning...... There are probably 250+ posts just on glue alone. I did one many years ago and compiled all I had learned about glues, but that's probably buried waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay back in the archives. I just went searching for it and I can't find it..... It could be a tough job depending on how resourceful the person doing it is. Much of this would be repetitive in my view, having a list of the greatest threads on various topics and adding to that list as research permits and then offering those threads when the same old, same old questions are asked again. My point is that there are some posts from way back that remain the definitive "word" on many of the subjects that we discuss. I'm remember when Mario switched to poly and Rick helped him with his experience. That's just one of many that were great threads dripping with information. We, you and I and others who were here back then Rod had the benefit of the words and wisdom of Mario, Rick, Colin, Dave White, Howard and many other pro Luthiers. I suspect that anyone coming along these days would appreciate having this offered to them too. That's the value that I see here and our archives are priceless if they could be organized in such a manner that the good stuff is easily available.

Author:	John How [ Thu Sep 23, 2021 1:36 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: OLF Historian
Since there hasn’t been a volunteer jumping up for the job…And no that’s not me either… Google search can be pointed at a specific domain and can assist in finding old info on this site…

Author:	jfmckenna [ Thu Sep 23, 2021 2:30 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: OLF Historian
I don't know why but Googles site search doesn't seem to work with this domain. IOW to search for the word Glue you would go to google and search: site:luthiersforum.com/forum glue But it yields no results. If for example you do this search: site:acousticguitarforum.com glue You get about 20k results all from that domain. It's like the OLF has closed itself off to the search world. That may have been done by choice. What this place needs is a librarian.

Author:	Bryan Bear [ Thu Sep 23, 2021 10:34 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: OLF Historian
jfmckenna wrote: What this place needs is a librarian. One of the blessings and curses of the old days at the MIMF was the rigid rules designed to keep the forum useful beyond the life of a particular thread. I know it put a lot of people off but there was a fair amount of foresight that went into many of the rules. It took me a while to get used to the fact that most of the threads here get dumped into the first forum instead of a forum by topic (glue, instrument type, woods and materials. . .) the old MIMF also had a lot of rules about how to label a new thread and keeping things on topic. It was a bit annoying but it also served everyone well because they had librarians who would parse down topics for the archives which were extensive and easy to navigate. There is a lot of great info here but often a good discussion about a particular finish is hidden in a topic about something else.

Author:	Hesh [ Fri Sep 24, 2021 7:57 am ]
Post subject:	Re: OLF Historian
Yep I agree structure had and has a purpose and we are missing out of some of the advantages of having things well categorized. Librarian, historian makes no difference to me. What I want to see is nearly every time I come here I read a thread from someone struggling with a topic that I know and remember we discussed at length multiple times and I even remember some of the responses and who posted them. For example regarding Bryan's excellent comment I recall one time when Mario chimed in and let us know in no uncertain terms that he hates it when people don't title their threads accurately and afford others the consideration of having an opportunity to decide if we wish to click on the thing or not. For example a thread titled "Never again..." gets lots of clicks, sadly. But Mario went on to say he's busy, working hard, had a five year waiting list and is on his lunch hour. Had he known the true nature of some of these threads he said he would not have wasted his time on them. I feel the exact same way now. At work after a morning of working on guitars I put my feet up, maybe come here to see what's up and many threads are titled in such a manner that we can't know what they are actually about. So anyway I'm not getting into the rules debate, that was not my intent I simply think that we, the OLF can do a much better job of offering up the original "word" on many things from the people who we, some of us originally learned these things from. I'm grateful for all the help that I received here back in the day, the early days for the most part of the OLF over a decade ago and I feel a duty to help others. The activities of a librarian/historian would be repetitive and in time easier. As they find a good thread to offer up they could also maintain a list of "The OLF's Greatest Threads" with knowledge provided being what makes a thread so great.

Author:	banjopicks [ Fri Sep 24, 2021 8:19 am ]
Post subject:	Re: OLF Historian
The "never again" thread was mine and I never gave any thought to archives and searches when I wrote it. I'm glad you brought this up as it hit home with me. In the future, I'll attempt to make my titles clearer. Coming up with a good title isn't easy using only a few words.

Author:	Dave Higham [ Fri Sep 24, 2021 10:37 am ]
Post subject:	Re: OLF Historian
Hesh, I've tried several times to find the thread you did (I'm pretty sure it was you) showing that flexing go-bars by different amounts didn't change the force they applied, with no success. Do old threads fall off the end of the list? Seems to me an archivist would have an impossible job.

Author:	doncaparker [ Fri Sep 24, 2021 11:10 am ]
Post subject:	Re: OLF Historian
My opinion: Beefing up the OLF's search engine is a more feasible goal than convincing someone to organize the overwhelming amount of content. I have said in the past, as other problems arose regarding the OLF, that I would be willing to contribute money (along with other members) toward solving those problems. I say the same thing here regarding this need. If you stick with the goal of convincing someone on the OLF to be a historian/librarian/archivist, my suggestion is that you target someone who has recently retired from active employment. Those still employed don't have time, and those who have been retired for a long time tend to not have as much "gidyap" as this sort of project probably requires. Just an observation from dealing with a lot of volunteer labor donating time to a nonprofit.

Author:	DennisK [ Fri Sep 24, 2021 3:34 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: OLF Historian
Bryan Bear wrote: One of the blessings and curses of the old days at the MIMF was the rigid rules designed to keep the forum useful beyond the life of a particular thread. I know it put a lot of people off but there was a fair amount of foresight that went into many of the rules. Yeah, such rules can be useful, but personally I gravitate toward places with a more laid back atmosphere. The accumulation of recorded knowledge is one reason I prefer forums over many other forms of socialization, but it will happen regardless of any rules. Improved organization is not worth the cost of living in fear of being yelled at by a grumpy moderator My feeling is that the historian role should be more of a collective thing than a single person's job. Again a natural emergent behavior of forums. Everyone remembers a different subset of the total knowledge base, so whoever remembers an interesting thread should post the link to it when the topic comes up. But if people remember things and can't find them, then that's no good. I'm not sure what could be done to improve the search engine, though. The current query system seems pretty complete to me already. I think I found the thread Dave was looking for by searching author Hesh with keywords "go bar go-bar gobar" to get all the potential spellings. Several posts in this thread are all that came up Using a GoBar deck to glue tops and backs to the sides. I try to remember to bookmark interesting threads so I don't have to search them up later, but my collection is surely missing a lot of good ones: Backstrapping / hand stop / volute tutorial the voicing/bracing thread Ladder Braced Concert Guitar - My recipe Outside Molds - One Method How to create a purfling mosaic with a circle or dot inside? Hotrodded my Ibex bending iron Fret Slotting tolerance question Classical Guitar Top Bracing 12-String Saddle Compensation shop pic Binding "Slitter" Upper bout structure Making wedge for fretboard extension Experimental guitars...not stuck in the mould Regarding linings (and some other things) Removing Epoxied Fingerboard Appropriately seasoned wood

Author:	jfmckenna [ Fri Sep 24, 2021 9:45 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: OLF Historian
Dave Higham wrote: Hesh, I've tried several times to find the thread you did (I'm pretty sure it was you) showing that flexing go-bars by different amounts didn't change the force they applied, with no success. Do old threads fall off the end of the list? Seems to me an archivist would have an impossible job. I remember that and even though I don't use go bars that's always in the back of my mind when I see others using them. It's funny, intuition where guitar making is concerned, at least for I, is almost always wrong!

Author:	Hesh [ Sat Sep 25, 2021 7:09 am ]
Post subject:	Re: OLF Historian
banjopicks wrote: The "never again" thread was mine and I never gave any thought to archives and searches when I wrote it. I'm glad you brought this up as it hit home with me. In the future, I'll attempt to make my titles clearer. Coming up with a good title isn't easy using only a few words. Sarge man I'm sorry I did not even know there was an actual thread titled "Never Again" I just made that up as an example of a title that revealed little about the intent of the thread. Didn't mean to point out one my friend.

Author:	Hesh [ Sat Sep 25, 2021 7:19 am ]
Post subject:	Re: OLF Historian
doncaparker wrote: My opinion: Beefing up the OLF's search engine is a more feasible goal than convincing someone to organize the overwhelming amount of content. I have said in the past, as other problems arose regarding the OLF, that I would be willing to contribute money (along with other members) toward solving those problems. I say the same thing here regarding this need. If you stick with the goal of convincing someone on the OLF to be a historian/librarian/archivist, my suggestion is that you target someone who has recently retired from active employment. Those still employed don't have time, and those who have been retired for a long time tend to not have as much "gidyap" as this sort of project probably requires. Just an observation from dealing with a lot of volunteer labor donating time to a nonprofit. Any proposed changes, additions etc. should not be dependent on Lance his plate is obviously full when it comes to time. Funding a software project will require oversight of the site owner as well. That's why I'm for simply looking for making what we have more available to all with someone who can whip out relevant threads when appropriate and maybe post a list of some of our greatest spews... by category. And I have no plans of sticking with anything, it's simply a suggestion, I spend little time here now and again I have noticed that knowledge that assisted me are seemingly not offered up to others here now mostly because people either forgot the prior thread or it's too hard to find them. So to be clear I am NOT looking for any software changes, money to be spent or raised, Lance's time and energy expended. I simply wondered if someone would be interested in this role. Early on for those who were not here when I was new to Lutherie for some years I chimed in on every thread and repeated what I had already learned from other threads. It was annoying to some but man did I learn this material to the point where it's how I make my living now. If it does not happen no biggie it's not me that is missing out on something very, very valuable in my experience.

Author:	Hesh [ Sat Sep 25, 2021 7:28 am ]
Post subject:	Re: OLF Historian
Dave Higham wrote: Hesh, I've tried several times to find the thread you did (I'm pretty sure it was you) showing that flexing go-bars by different amounts didn't change the force they applied, with no success. Do old threads fall off the end of the list? Seems to me an archivist would have an impossible job. Hey Dave!! Good to see you here. I remember that thread and yeah it was me who did it. I used my bathroom scale to show pressure exerted by various go-bars at different amounts of inflection to show that only a slight amount of inflection 1.5" - 3" was all that was needed for maximum clamping pressure. All threads are still here to my knowledge it's just searching for them is tough. I try to remember unique words associated with the thread/topic and then put those words in as "search keys" and I may use quotation marks around the words and select "all luthier rooms." So if I were to search for this thread my search would include the words "inflection" and "go-bar" employing a secondary search key. Nearly 50 years ago I took a class called IMS which was a theoretical book about someday a thing called a relational database might be invented.... . That book laid out a framework for how to possibly search on multiple keys and tag data. All techniques that led to Oracle, Condor and many other early relational databases but I digress. I'll do a search now and tell you what I find on the go-bar thread.

Author:	Hesh [ Sat Sep 25, 2021 7:30 am ]
Post subject:	Re: OLF Historian
Dave Higham wrote: Hesh, I've tried several times to find the thread you did (I'm pretty sure it was you) showing that flexing go-bars by different amounts didn't change the force they applied, with no success. Do old threads fall off the end of the list? Seems to me an archivist would have an impossible job. No results even with me designated as author. Now I wonder where it is too.

Author:	Hesh [ Sat Sep 25, 2021 7:32 am ]
Post subject:	Re: OLF Historian
DennisK wrote: Bryan Bear wrote: One of the blessings and curses of the old days at the MIMF was the rigid rules designed to keep the forum useful beyond the life of a particular thread. I know it put a lot of people off but there was a fair amount of foresight that went into many of the rules. Yeah, such rules can be useful, but personally I gravitate toward places with a more laid back atmosphere. The accumulation of recorded knowledge is one reason I prefer forums over many other forms of socialization, but it will happen regardless of any rules. Improved organization is not worth the cost of living in fear of being yelled at by a grumpy moderator My feeling is that the historian role should be more of a collective thing than a single person's job. Again a natural emergent behavior of forums. Everyone remembers a different subset of the total knowledge base, so whoever remembers an interesting thread should post the link to it when the topic comes up. But if people remember things and can't find them, then that's no good. I'm not sure what could be done to improve the search engine, though. The current query system seems pretty complete to me already. I think I found the thread Dave was looking for by searching author Hesh with keywords "go bar go-bar gobar" to get all the potential spellings. Several posts in this thread are all that came up Using a GoBar deck to glue tops and backs to the sides. I try to remember to bookmark interesting threads so I don't have to search them up later, but my collection is surely missing a lot of good ones: Backstrapping / hand stop / volute tutorial the voicing/bracing thread Ladder Braced Concert Guitar - My recipe Outside Molds - One Method How to create a purfling mosaic with a circle or dot inside? Hotrodded my Ibex bending iron Fret Slotting tolerance question Classical Guitar Top Bracing 12-String Saddle Compensation shop pic Binding "Slitter" Upper bout structure Making wedge for fretboard extension Experimental guitars...not stuck in the mould Regarding linings (and some other things) Removing Epoxied Fingerboard Appropriately seasoned wood Yay you found it Dennis, good going!!! Wanna be our historian?

Author:	Hesh [ Sat Sep 25, 2021 7:33 am ]
Post subject:	Re: OLF Historian
jfmckenna wrote: Dave Higham wrote: Hesh, I've tried several times to find the thread you did (I'm pretty sure it was you) showing that flexing go-bars by different amounts didn't change the force they applied, with no success. Do old threads fall off the end of the list? Seems to me an archivist would have an impossible job. I remember that and even though I don't use go bars that's always in the back of my mind when I see others using them. It's funny, intuition where guitar making is concerned, at least for I, is almost always wrong! I remembered it too but had some aspects wrong such as I did not start it but contributed the show and tell science project to the thread. Wow that was a long time ago and Serge was still here back then.

Author:	bionta [ Sat Sep 25, 2021 3:02 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: OLF Historian
Maybe there is a way to sort of crowdsource the work. Collectively come up with a list of subject areas (ala the mimf sub topics), ask Lance to implement the sub-forums and then let everyone populate them. As someone discovers an old thread that is especially instructive (Dennisk has a good starting set) move it into the appropriate sub-forum (with a helpful subject title). I don’t know how to do that, offhand, but I’m willing to bet it’s possible and maybe even easy. Perhaps a nominating process would be useful, with a moderator to decide which threads are catalogued and do the move. This could be necessary if all forum members do not have the ability to move a thread (likely). Over time the most valuable threads would migrate to the new catalog.

Author:	meddlingfool [ Sat Sep 25, 2021 5:54 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: OLF Historian
Perhaps start a sticky with solid answers to FAQ's?

Author:	J De Rocher [ Sat Sep 25, 2021 7:55 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: OLF Historian
DennisK wrote: I think I found the thread Dave was looking for by searching author Hesh with keywords "go bar go-bar gobar" to get all the potential spellings. Several posts in this thread are all that came up Using a GoBar deck to glue tops and backs to the sides. One limitation of the search function on this site is that it won't find words with less than four letters. So it was fortunate that you included "gobar" as a search term because "go bar" doesn't bring back any results and even "go-bar" fails too. Apparently, the hyphen doesn't help. This is a problem for topics where people rely on commonly used abbreviations like CA, HHG, DNA, etc. It's also a problem for searches for terms like "bridge pin" because the search function will ignore "pin" and bring back every single post that has "bridge" in it. Unless you put quotes around the phrase bridge pin in the search window, then most of the results will have the phrase bridge pin in them. Something to keep in mind when trying to find those old posts of interest by using the search function.

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