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| How to build a twisted neck? http://w-ww.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10101&t=54472 |
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| Author: | John Elshaw [ Sat Oct 09, 2021 11:43 am ] |
| Post subject: | How to build a twisted neck? |
My favorite and most comfortable guitar to play has a twist in the neck. It's a 2012 model built by Eric Sahlin and it is by far the best guitar I've ever played, and that's saying something because I used to own a $25k Hauser III guitar. My question is, does anybody know how to go about building a twist in the neck like this? The fretboard all seems to be uniform thickness, and the neck isn't simply shaved on one side. How would you go about building a neck that twists, and then properly fitting a fretboard that twists on top of that? Do you think it's somehow built normal and twisted via some method/jig before assembly? I'd really like to know how this is built. https://photos.app.goo.gl/nJ3ivroNwRdTyPU4A https://photos.app.goo.gl/PegUJkySSwjBzYnC9 https://photos.app.goo.gl/cxWeQnhLMpY4dfQZ9 https://photos.app.goo.gl/45eT5Kp4kE6qQej58 https://photos.app.goo.gl/2JKSPT8tcjzUjMPi7 |
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| Author: | Dave m2 [ Sat Oct 09, 2021 12:06 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: How to build a twisted neck? |
That really is a severe twist - I wonder why you find it so comfortable to play...? It is fairly normal practice to provide more clearance for the base strings by removing a bit of material from the fretboard on that side but yours is much more than that. One has to wonder if it was really built like that or whether the neck wood has moved because of inbuilt stresses. Very interested to hear others views. Dave |
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| Author: | Hesh [ Sat Oct 09, 2021 12:15 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: How to build a twisted neck? |
Twisted necks are not uncommon and the 335 on my business card had a severely twisted neck. It's not desirable though and not unlike a pink Cadillac that was/is a Mary Kay car. You may dig it and it's playability may suit you fine but try to sell it..... My guess is that it is not intentional and the result of poorly seasoned wood and/or glue-up technique. As for future serviceability forget about fret work and that pretty much makes a twisted neck only usable as long as someone can stand it. You cannot level a fret plane on a twisted neck without doing one-off methods that will cost you far more than it's worth. We declined to service a small builder guitar last Tuesday because of a twisted neck, loose frets, lifting bridge and generally some nightmare of someone's woodworking project who was clueless about Lutherie and the physics of how a guitar works. We take on small builder instruments on a case by case basis because many of them are terrible. In this case this person could not get servicing because a twisted neck changes everything when attempting to service the instrument. There's only so much we can do so we don't want to get any on us. My guess is the twist is unintentional and not something that you really want to replicate. |
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| Author: | J De Rocher [ Sat Oct 09, 2021 12:47 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: How to build a twisted neck? |
There have been at least a couple builders who intentionally built guitars with a twist in the neck: https://torzalguitars.com/natural-twist https://buildingtheergonomicguitar.com/2007/05/burrell-guitars-instruments-that-conform-to-the-guitarist.html No information on how they did it though. |
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| Author: | wbergman [ Sat Oct 09, 2021 1:16 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: How to build a twisted neck? |
I see a Sahlin for sale where the seller brags about the twisted neck. I think it is deliberate. |
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| Author: | Pat Foster [ Sat Oct 09, 2021 1:27 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: How to build a twisted neck? |
A slight twist in the fretboard is not uncommon in classical guitars. Default 12th fret action is 3mm on the high e and 4 on the low, which means a difference of 2mm in string height off the top at the bridge. Some builders, myself included, put a twist in the fretboard to reduce that difference by planing the fretboard thinner at the upper end of the bass side. Eric is the only classical builder I know of that does it for ergonomics, on a whole different level. I've known Eric for about ten years, and every guitar of his I've seen had a twisted neck built in. It can reduce strain on the wrist for players that hold the gutar in the classical position, given the physical demands that those players are subject to, especially the ones that have practiced many hours a day for decades. You might ask him. He's generous when it comes to sharing knowledge from 40 years of building. |
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| Author: | Carey [ Sat Oct 09, 2021 2:34 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: How to build a twisted neck? |
This online issue of Orfeo magazine (what a beautiful job they do!) has a nice profile on Eric Sahlin: https://issuu.com/orfeomagazine/docs/orfeo_10_en |
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| Author: | Chris Pile [ Sat Oct 09, 2021 2:57 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: How to build a twisted neck? |
I remember a maker from the late 70's that espoused twisted necks (Dave Bunker, maybe?). At the time, my understanding didn't grasp how in the heck it worked. Now I realize that the string does not depart from it's plane no matter the orientation. |
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| Author: | joshnothing [ Sat Oct 09, 2021 4:04 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: How to build a twisted neck? |
I might be misremembering but I thought I read an interview with Joshia De Jonge in either a GAL or ASIA mag where she spoke of her technique of shaping a deliberate twist into the neck. I cannot recall if the twist was milled into the neck wood or the fingerboard. It was a subtle twist. If I were to attempt it, I would use a handplane to do it. |
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| Author: | John Elshaw [ Sat Oct 09, 2021 9:21 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: How to build a twisted neck? |
To clarify to those who are wondering, this is not a mistake or damage, it is a design choice and is outstanding. I consider myself a much better classical player than builder, been playing for 40 years, and Eric's guitars are among the best I've ever heard or played. The neck twist makes it extremely comfortable to play with proper classical posture of your had and wrist, and just makes it effortless to move up and down the neck. It's how the ergonomics of your hand naturally want to move as you play. I'd really like to see how he makes his necks and fretboards. |
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| Author: | John Elshaw [ Sat Oct 09, 2021 10:04 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: How to build a twisted neck? |
Carey wrote: This online issue of Orfeo magazine (what a beautiful job they do!) has a nice profile on Eric Sahlin: https://issuu.com/orfeomagazine/docs/orfeo_10_en Good read, thanks for sharing. So besides comfort, Eric says in the article that he twists the neck because it allows him to have the same size saddle from the bass to treble strings, which also evens out the tension. With a uniform saddle height, the treble side will benefit from higher tension on the bridge. This makes sense because I've always described my sahlin guitar as being piano like, very even up and down the neck between registers. Maybe that's what appeals to me, the treble strings just sing with volume and sweet tone. |
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| Author: | ThomLuth [ Sat Oct 09, 2021 10:49 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: How to build a twisted neck? |
joshnothing wrote: I might be misremembering but I thought I read an interview with Joshia De Jonge in either a GAL or ASIA mag where she spoke of her technique of shaping a deliberate twist into the neck. I cannot recall if the twist was milled into the neck wood or the fingerboard. It was a subtle twist. If I were to attempt it, I would use a handplane to do it. That was American Luthierie, No. 137. She uses an elevated neck. As I recall, the neck proper is planed so the neck near the nut is "twisted" toward the treble. Then, she glues on the "elevator," which is glued on top of the neck. The fretboard is glued on top of that, and the fretboard is planed so it is "twisted" towards the bass, near the soundhole. Paul Jacobson also had, what he called a "double twist-plane fingerboard. There is also a bass maker who does what he called a "Torzal Twist." Leo Burrell builds twisted neck steel strings, and the and the body on some models, really twists. As has been mentioned already, many classical builders, myself included, plane down the fretboard on the bass side near the soundhole, to get a more level saddle height. It is certainly possible that there are twisted necks that are not intentional, but there are also many that are not only intentional, but getting rave reviews by players. Eric Sahlin has a nine year wait list. I would guess that one of his guitars on the used market would get snapped up pretty quickly. |
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| Author: | Colin North [ Sun Oct 10, 2021 5:06 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: How to build a twisted neck? |
I've always had twist, with a lower FB on the bass side, I just offset the FB centre line on the radiusing jig and align the router path with the treble side. Then level along the string paths with a beam before fretting (on the assembled guitar), which leaves the bass side ~ 1mm lower then the treble at the 12th fret (with a 16" radius) The aim is to even out the height/torque at the saddle is in the hope of getting more even response bass to treble. |
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| Author: | Terence Kennedy [ Mon Oct 11, 2021 8:53 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: How to build a twisted neck? |
That's a pretty cool idea. Something I had not heard of before and definitely has some theoretical appeal. Do you think you can hear a tonal or string balance difference with the asymmetric radius and even saddle height Colin? |
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| Author: | Colin North [ Tue Oct 12, 2021 8:26 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: How to build a twisted neck? |
Terence Kennedy wrote: That's a pretty cool idea. Something I had not heard of before and definitely has some theoretical appeal. Do you think you can hear a tonal or string balance difference with the asymmetric radius and even saddle height Colin? I know it's easy to fool oneself into thinking you hear something that may not actually be there, simply because that's what you think you'll find. What I would say is I DO hear a definite difference when the saddle height is lowered during set-ups, and have seen this reported by other builders, and some even aiming for different final saddle heights on new builds for different styles of playing. The difference from say 13mm to 11mm (quite a typical difference in saddle height bass to treble without trying to even the saddle heights) means slightly more than 15% decrease in torque at the saddle for the treble string. And I can quite clearly hear the difference if I reduce saddle height by around 2mm for a setup. I did one the other day that required 1.8 mm saddle reduction to set a good action, and it was quite noticeable, especially in volume, and attack/responsiveness also were lowered. So I'll stick with my FB being a bit "twisted", every little bit helps. |
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| Author: | JimWomack [ Tue Oct 12, 2021 10:47 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: How to build a twisted neck? |
Anybody remember the Lace Helix guitars? They made electrics, base, and acoustics with twisted necks. Haven't seen one in a few years. Here's a video relating the benefits: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vtcTUaut4c4 |
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