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String spacing at the nut (again).
http://w-ww.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10101&t=54498		 Page 1 of 1
Author:  Dave Higham [ Sat Oct 23, 2021 2:29 am ]
Post subject:  String spacing at the nut (again).
I know a lot of discussion must have taken place on this subject but, as the forum search ignores words like ‘how’, ’far’, ‘at’, ‘the’, ‘and’, ‘nut’, I didn’t find what I was looking for.
Guitar plans usually show the axes or centres of the strings equally spaced and the centres of the E strings the same distance from the edge of the fingerboard.

But some people think it’s better if there are equal spaces between the surfaces of the strings, not their centres and Stewmac sells a special rule to enable you to do this (approximately). Some think that you can’t tell the difference when playing. I say approximately because the rule can only work perfectly for one given set of string gauges.

In their instructions, Stewmac says to start by marking the position of the E strings, but doesn’t say what that should be.

The drawing below shows the following for a set of D’Addario phosphor bronze lights:-

1. The centres of the strings equally spaced and the centres of the E strings an equal distance from the edge of the fingerboard.
2. The E strings in the same position, but the rest spaced using the Stewmac rule.
3. The E strings still in the same position, but the others spaced accurately.
4. The surface of the E strings an equal distance from the edge and the others spaced accurately.

Obviously they are all different, even if only by small amounts. Which one would you use?
I’m hoping @Hesh might have something to say. I know he does a lot of nuts.
Image
Author:  Colin North [ Sat Oct 23, 2021 4:18 am ]
Post subject:  Re: String spacing at the nut (again).
Qs 3 & 4 - accurately or equally?

I suppose 2 would be the "correct" answer but I place the low E closer (~0.5mm) to the edge for players who use their thumb to fret the 6th string, the rest of the spacing according to the SM rule.
Author:  Dave Higham [ Sat Oct 23, 2021 4:40 am ]
Post subject:  Re: String spacing at the nut (again).
Colin North wrote:
Qs 3 & 4 - accurately or equally?

I suppose 2 would be the "correct" answer but I place the low E closer (~0.5mm) to the edge for players who use their thumb to fret the 6th string, the rest of the spacing according to the SM rule.


Spaced equally. I said accurately because the stewmac rule can only space the strings equally for a certain set of string gauges although I admit it gets them pretty close and you don't need to calculate.
The point about the low E is interesting, but is that starting from its centre being the same distance from the edge as the high E and then moving it 0.5mm?
Author:  DennisK [ Sat Oct 23, 2021 5:18 am ]
Post subject:  Re: String spacing at the nut (again).
I use StewMac rule style spacing, although I just eyeball it. The limiting factor is when your finger is too fat and contacts both neighboring strings. If you use equal distance from center to center, then there's a smaller space left for your finger between the lower strings, and thus wasted space between the high strings.

Edge space can be measured either to the string edge or center, since the distances don't necessarily need to be equal anyway. I've always measured to string edge, but now that I think about it I suppose it would be more logical to use string center. In this case the limiting factor is when you bend the string too far and fall off the edge of the fret, and strings are round so the contact point with the fret is always the center of the string.
Author:  SteveSmith [ Sat Oct 23, 2021 6:27 am ]
Post subject:  Re: String spacing at the nut (again).
I use the StewMac rule. Hi E is 1/8” from the edge and low E somewhat less, about 3/32”.

I would add my spacing is to the center of the string.
Author:  Colin North [ Sat Oct 23, 2021 6:43 am ]
Post subject:  Re: String spacing at the nut (again).
Dave Higham wrote:
Colin North wrote:
Qs 3 & 4 - accurately or equally?

I suppose 2 would be the "correct" answer but I place the low E closer (~0.5mm) to the edge for players who use their thumb to fret the 6th string, the rest of the spacing according to the SM rule.


Spaced equally. I said accurately because the stewmac rule can only space the strings equally for a certain set of string gauges although I admit it gets them pretty close and you don't need to calculate.
The point about the low E is interesting, but is that starting from its centre being the same distance from the edge as the high E and then moving it 0.5mm?

No, it's not starting from its center being the same distance from the edge.
For me, it's starting with its center being at 2.5mm, then spacing with SM rule. I know the spacing is only perfect for certain gauges, but seems fine for my normal 12's.
If they want a vastly different gauge, I start with the SM rule and eye-ball it if seems warranted.
Author:  johnparchem [ Sat Oct 23, 2021 8:02 am ]
Post subject:  Re: String spacing at the nut (again).
I have done 1, 2 and 3. I now use 2 the stewmac way as it visually does a pretty good job with the spaces between the strings and I do not have to use the string gauges to calculate the spaces. I have not done 4 as I allow a little more on the treble side.
Author:  Hesh [ Sat Oct 23, 2021 10:51 am ]
Post subject:  Re: String spacing at the nut (again).
Hi Dave! StewMac rule here but this is way more complex than it should be. If you checked spacing on 100 beloved guitars you will find little consistency (unless they are all the same make from the same premade nut supplier).

I would use what the StewMac rule suggests and I do check my progress against that rule over a dozen times when making a nut. I have had retired Luthiers who ask me to work on their stuff now ask me for different spacing as a one-off and that's easy too. What kind of spacing on centers or on edges is purely personal taste and in some cases compensation for not being the player that one might have wished to be.... A lot of the repair business is dealing with folks compensating at times.

Also I'm not always keen to have equal spaces on the two e's from the edge of the neck Dave. Many players like a thumb over on the bass notes and more bending room on the treble notes.

Regarding what the total spacing is and how far from the edge of the neck it is potentially different for every guitar and player and dependent on what you have to work with in both respects. That's why most nut makers do visually position the two e's and then go from there and that's how StewMac says to do it and how we do it too.

Why? Because if this is a 1939 Gibson where they rolled the fret board edges and fret ends are over beveled the strings need to be more inset to avoid the milled in "off ramps" on the poorly done fret ends.

Many makers today radically over bevel the fret ends. If the strings are too close off the neck they slide and or with bends off the neck they go too. So it's a case by case basis player and guitar dependent.

Nut making and string spacing is a tale of the best laid plans of mice and men not translating all that well. So it's very dependent on the big picture, the specific instrument, the strings, the player at times too and there is snake oil here as well where some folks want what they want because they are compensating for not being the player they may wish to be.
Author:  jfmckenna [ Sat Oct 23, 2021 1:49 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: String spacing at the nut (again).
Of all the tools I have gotten from SM the fret spacing rule is by far my favorite. Looks like it's pretty popular here on the forum too. Just get it, trust us ;)
Author:  Chris Pile [ Sat Oct 23, 2021 2:02 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: String spacing at the nut (again).
I've been doing it by eye for so long.... I adjust spacing to the client's wishes (provided they have any), and as for the rest - I do what I think is called for. I've made a mistake here and there - but can't remember any complaints.
Author:  Hesh [ Sat Oct 23, 2021 2:37 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: String spacing at the nut (again).
jfmckenna wrote:
Of all the tools I have gotten from SM the fret spacing rule is by far my favorite. Looks like it's pretty popular here on the forum too. Just get it, trust us ;)


Well said, us too, it's a winner of a tool. It also does spacing at the bridge too for say an arch top or a mandolin when no slots have been cut prior.
Author:  Dave Higham [ Sat Oct 23, 2021 3:50 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: String spacing at the nut (again).
Thank you all for your replies. You've all been very helpful and I'll be ordering theStewmac rule.
Author:  Darrel Friesen [ Sat Oct 23, 2021 6:46 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: String spacing at the nut (again).
The Stew Mac rule is great. I also use a vintage proportional divider as per Frank Ford for spacing holes on the bridge. Fantastic little tool.
Author:  jfmckenna [ Sat Oct 23, 2021 6:56 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: String spacing at the nut (again).
Hesh wrote:
jfmckenna wrote:
Of all the tools I have gotten from SM the fret spacing rule is by far my favorite. Looks like it's pretty popular here on the forum too. Just get it, trust us ;)


Well said, us too, it's a winner of a tool. It also does spacing at the bridge too for say an arch top or a mandolin when no slots have been cut prior.


When I make a custom bridge or a bridge for one of my guitars I still use it to mark out the pin hole centers. Probably not as effective because of the wide spacing in regards to string width and fine precision but it just makes everything so fast to line up.
Author:  Hesh [ Sun Oct 24, 2021 6:38 am ]
Post subject:  Re: String spacing at the nut (again).
I like that they made it flexible as well so if can follow a contour on a nut top.

Now if someone could come up with a .005" mechanical lead pencil that I don't have to sharpen further on sandpaper clipped to my vice for this purpose (Dave Collins idea) I'de be even happier. We have had discussions about pencil line width as well tying to be as accurate as we can be.
Author:  Colin North [ Sun Oct 24, 2021 7:04 am ]
Post subject:  Re: String spacing at the nut (again).
Hesh wrote:
I like that they made it flexible as well so if can follow a contour on a nut top.

Now if someone could come up with a .005" mechanical lead pencil that I don't have to sharpen further on sandpaper clipped to my vice for this purpose (Dave Collins idea) I'de be even happier. We have had discussions about pencil line width as well tying to be as accurate as we can be.

A scribe? Rub pencil lead into the mark.
Author:  SteveSmith [ Sun Oct 24, 2021 8:10 am ]
Post subject:  Re: String spacing at the nut (again).
I like the .3mm pencils for marking over the .5mm. Works for me.
Author:  Clay S. [ Sun Oct 24, 2021 8:42 am ]
Post subject:  Re: String spacing at the nut (again).
Hesh wrote:
I like that they made it flexible as well so if can follow a contour on a nut top.

Now if someone could come up with a .005" mechanical lead pencil that I don't have to sharpen further on sandpaper clipped to my vice for this purpose (Dave Collins idea) I'de be even happier. We have had discussions about pencil line width as well tying to be as accurate as we can be.


The 0.3mm Pentel would get you halfway there (.011 inch.):
https://www.amazon.com/Pentel-GraphGear ... INSTRUMENT

You could guesstimate the center - honestly I don't think I could see a line much finer than that. The semi disposable Pentels have all but replaced the lovely Venus pencils I used back when I designed and drew up water control structures - and now in turn are being replaced by cad drawings.
Author:  Barry Daniels [ Sun Oct 24, 2021 10:48 am ]
Post subject:  Re: String spacing at the nut (again).
I use a scribe and scratch a little groove on top of the nut blank. A razor saw fits into the scratch for positive registration with little chance for error.
Author:  Pat Foster [ Sun Oct 24, 2021 11:27 am ]
Post subject:  Re: String spacing at the nut (again).
I mark the top of the nut with Dry Erase black and scribe down to the white. I leave the nut fairly tall and the marker goes away with final shaping. For SS, I printed the equivalent of the Stewmac on paper as Frank Ford shows on his site, with the lines spacing incremented by .005", laid out in a vector drawing program. Sort of a SM spacing rule on paper.
Author:  Hesh [ Mon Oct 25, 2021 5:49 am ]
Post subject:  Re: String spacing at the nut (again).
Thanks gents! What I don't like about a scribe is where this all starts and that is the positioning of the two e's. As mentioned for us and for Dan E. who wrote the StewMac book the two outer e's are positioned visually and then we step back and take a good look to see if they look to be in the correct position. Again this "correct position" varies from guitar to guitar and is a function of the fret work, the player and sometimes a rolled fret board edge too.

I can see that a scribe is intergal too to the use of a razor saw for cutting and we don't do that either favoring nut slot files. We like the nut slot files over a saw because we can "walk" them in both directions to further correct or refine spacing all the way down to final slot depth. WIth me things develop slower with files too which can be a good thing some days.... :) But there is not "correct" here it's what you are comfortable with.

WIth this said it is not uncommon for me to change one of my outer e marks to correct what I don't like. An eraser is easy at this stage. I could scribe the inner strings once the outer string positions is established and good to go.

Did not know about .003" pencils, thanks for that off to Amazon here to get me some.
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