Official Luthiers Forum!
http://w-ww.luthiersforum.com/forum/

Point Me To Your Selmer Sources
http://w-ww.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10101&t=54526		 Page 1 of 1
Author:  Slim [ Sat Nov 06, 2021 1:21 pm ]
Post subject:  Point Me To Your Selmer Sources
Hey guys I’ve been kicking around the idea of starting a Selmer Petite Bouche style build. Flat tops I’m familiar with but these seem to be a little different animal, almost like a hybrid of sorts. Some guys build the Pliage in and some do not, it seems some laminate the sides and some do not do not, and such. So I’m not sure at this point what I should do all I know is I have a set of walnut back and sides, couple of sound board, and few neck blanks I would like to do something with. Could you kindly point me to some resources to do a little studying up on for these styles of guitars?
Author:  jfmckenna [ Sat Nov 06, 2021 1:37 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Point Me To Your Selmer Sources
Michael Collins wrote the book on it. He used to sell pre bent laminated sides too but I am not seeing that on his site now:

https://collinsguitar.com/products

Here's his book and this website also has a lot of info too:

https://www.djangobooks.com/Item/collin ... mer_guitar

It's out of stock but now that you know the title you may be able to find it. It was a very good book and what I used to build mine though I build in a different style. The CD's have probably replaced the book.

I built with the pliage because that is the way Maccaferri intended it to be done but it certainly doesn't have to be done that way. It's tricky but not too bad. The other tricky part of a Selmer is how the cut out is molded into the head block and heel of the joint as one smooth bend.
Author:  Slim [ Sat Nov 06, 2021 5:08 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Point Me To Your Selmer Sources
Jfmckenna thanks for the info and yeah I ran across folks talking about Collins book but couldn’t find it anywhere in stock or used but I did order a set of plans from his site to look over when they get here. One thing I have not seen discussed much is are the guys that are building in the pliage are they bracing in a radius dish some other method. I have even seen discussions on forming the pliage before gluing up the 2 soundboard sections. Honestly I think the pliage has me puzzled at the moment as to how it is achieved reliable without compromising anything as well as how it affects the top joining the sides.
Author:  Darrel Friesen [ Sat Nov 06, 2021 6:40 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Point Me To Your Selmer Sources
Slim wrote:
Jfmckenna thanks for the info and yeah I ran across folks talking about Collins book but couldn’t find it anywhere in stock or used but I did order a set of plans from his site to look over when they get here. One thing I have not seen discussed much is are the guys that are building in the pliage are they bracing in a radius dish some other method. I have even seen discussions on forming the pliage before gluing up the 2 soundboard sections. Honestly I think the pliage has me puzzled at the moment as to how it is achieved reliable without compromising anything as well as how it affects the top joining the sides.

I do recall some pretty detailed discussions on the MIMF that discussed how the pliage was done. Not sure how many threads survived as space always seemed to be a big concern back in the day. There may be some newer threads since the "newer" forum software was put in place.
Author:  Slim [ Sun Nov 07, 2021 9:06 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Point Me To Your Selmer Sources
Well I spent most of yesterday day afternoon and night digging around past threads on Selmer style Gypsy Jazz construction as well as on the web. I found many interesting ideas and perspectives on how things should be done. Which is encouraging and discouraging all at the same time I realize I could approach this like a traditional flat top with a Selmer look but I might end up with a D-28 Sounding small hole with a mustache.

I desire that dry cutting legendary sound of lead guitar from Quintette du Hot Club de France. I feel convinced I the Pliage is necessary. I have seen on method I think I favor concerning the top pliage and top attachment it seems it goes as follows.

1. Top sections are prepared for joining

2. Both sections creased in appropriate location for pliage

3. Top sections retouched up and joined

4. Radius bracing attached to top

5. Sides are basically kerfed, sanded straight, & supported straight in the body mold.

6. An outer rim body caul with the center cut out is cut from something relatively rigid and placed on top for even clamping to bring the top down during gluing.

Maybe this is all wrong but currently at the time it make sense to this old fool. I may have some experiments coming up in the near future.
Author:  jfmckenna [ Sun Nov 07, 2021 11:21 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Point Me To Your Selmer Sources
Hey Slim before I built my first one I brooded over it for a long time too. Collins uses a mold to build his guitars in his book. I have always built top down without a mold so while I used his book to a great deal I also used my own method to built. Regardless of how you choose to build design a plan and execute it, don't combine other techniques while in the middle of construction.

As for pliage, Collins bends the two top halves first then joins them. I can't imagine doing that so what I did was join the top first and then bend it. I used fish glue since it has a very high melting point and I bent it dry, no water. It worked fine. You can also scored a line with a razor knife to aid in bending.

I build A-Style mandolins in the same fashion. I do not have a photo album of Selmers up right now but if you look at this mando album you can see how I go about bending the pliage. Also you can see the work board I made for the mando. Did the same thing for Selmers.

https://photos.app.goo.gl/SfMoDqO9jHP8tvPW2
Author:  Slim [ Sun Nov 07, 2021 6:29 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Point Me To Your Selmer Sources
Wow Jfmckenna thanks for sharing that! How do you get the side and top to joint on the lower bout after the pliage starts the angle change? Do you mark the sides and take the sides down in that area to translate that angle onto the sides so nothing is being forced?
Author:  jfmckenna [ Sun Nov 07, 2021 8:22 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Point Me To Your Selmer Sources
Slim wrote:
Wow Jfmckenna thanks for sharing that! How do you get the side and top to joint on the lower bout after the pliage starts the angle change? Do you mark the sides and take the sides down in that area to translate that angle onto the sides so nothing is being forced?

Yes I did match the sides to the pliage angles. My thinking, and I believe Maccaferri's too, was that the top should have no forces on it aside from the arched braces. I believe that Collins mounts the top to flat sides. If you do that then the top will just rise above the plane of the sides and the pliage will be full dead center and then taper off to the sides.

Some will do this all by arched bracing alone. I prefer to match the sides. Lots of ways to build the top into these guitars. I have always felt that a top that is free of tension will vibrate more freely but one could argue that one under tension might do something beneficial to tone. So it goes. We all get crazy ideas in our heads and stick to them ;)
Author:  Slim [ Sun Nov 07, 2021 9:05 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Point Me To Your Selmer Sources
jfmckenna wrote:
Slim wrote:
Wow Jfmckenna thanks for sharing that! How do you get the side and top to joint on the lower bout after the pliage starts the angle change? Do you mark the sides and take the sides down in that area to translate that angle onto the sides so nothing is being forced?

Yes I did match the sides to the pliage angles. My thinking, and I believe Maccaferri's too, was that the top should have no forces on it aside from the arched braces. I believe that Collins mounts the top to flat sides. If you do that then the top will just rise above the plane of the sides and the pliage will be full dead center and then taper off to the sides.

Some will do this all by arched bracing alone. I prefer to match the sides. Lots of ways to build the top into these guitars. I have always felt that a top that is free of tension will vibrate more freely but one could argue that one under tension might do something beneficial to tone. So it goes. We all get crazy ideas in our heads and stick to them ;)


Yeah at the moment I agree with you about your low stress top way of thinking but I guess an argument could be made for each of the various methods. I suppose if things go well after a few more weeks of reading I will begin by adventure. One thing I do wonder is if when the pliage is formed with the hot tubing if it would not benefit from being round instead of square the effect might be minor I believe it would reduce the stress risers in the fiber maybe or maybe not just an idea.
Author:  jfmckenna [ Sun Nov 07, 2021 10:57 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Point Me To Your Selmer Sources
Slim wrote:
jfmckenna wrote:
Slim wrote:
Wow Jfmckenna thanks for sharing that! How do you get the side and top to joint on the lower bout after the pliage starts the angle change? Do you mark the sides and take the sides down in that area to translate that angle onto the sides so nothing is being forced?

Yes I did match the sides to the pliage angles. My thinking, and I believe Maccaferri's too, was that the top should have no forces on it aside from the arched braces. I believe that Collins mounts the top to flat sides. If you do that then the top will just rise above the plane of the sides and the pliage will be full dead center and then taper off to the sides.

Some will do this all by arched bracing alone. I prefer to match the sides. Lots of ways to build the top into these guitars. I have always felt that a top that is free of tension will vibrate more freely but one could argue that one under tension might do something beneficial to tone. So it goes. We all get crazy ideas in our heads and stick to them ;)


Yeah at the moment I agree with you about your low stress top way of thinking but I guess an argument could be made for each of the various methods. I suppose if things go well after a few more weeks of reading I will begin by adventure. One thing I do wonder is if when the pliage is formed with the hot tubing if it would not benefit from being round instead of square the effect might be minor I believe it would reduce the stress risers in the fiber maybe or maybe not just an idea.


It's a good idea indeed. My thinking was that the pliage is also the very point where the bridge goes and a brace underlining it and so it really is an angled transition. Some makers would even score a line with a razor blade on the top to demarcate it at an exact spot. But there is always room to move around.

So again, you are doing the right thing imho, you are thinking up a plan. Once you iron it out go for it and stick to it.

Good luck!
Author:  Slim [ Sun Nov 14, 2021 8:58 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Point Me To Your Selmer Sources
Still searching and looking at pics online of vintage small holes and something I can quite see for sure is how flat or not flat the area between the sound hole and utb is. I’m still waiting on the Collins drawings so hopefully that will clarify it. Seems I remember someone saying these instruments start off relatively flat but continue gain arch the farther South you go until you hit the pliage.
Author:  jfmckenna [ Mon Nov 15, 2021 9:30 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Point Me To Your Selmer Sources
You should probably order the Francois Charles plans as well. Those are pretty much the standard set. My take on those plans is that they are slightly overbuilt but again it's the default set of plans for a lot of builders.

The ladder braces are arched on the Selmers I build and more so in the 'South' as you suggested.
Author:  Slim [ Mon Nov 15, 2021 1:19 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Point Me To Your Selmer Sources
Francois Charles plans I think I’ve seen those on LMI maybe I will look into it.
Page 1 of 1 All times are UTC - 5 hours
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group
http://www.phpbb.com/