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| strings for a twelver http://w-ww.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10101&t=54616 |
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| Author: | mikemcnerney [ Mon Dec 13, 2021 6:29 pm ] |
| Post subject: | strings for a twelver |
After searching just strings for medium 12s, 11-52. Only curt mangan has a coated one. Is there anyone else that has one. Is coated better for an instrument that is not played that much? all comments appreciated |
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| Author: | Chris Pile [ Mon Dec 13, 2021 6:41 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: strings for a twelver |
Just my editorial..... Coated strings are supposed to make the strings last a long time without sounding dead. And they do - to a point. In my opinion, they start off sounding like 2 weeks old already - never bright and sparkling like most new strings do. Also, on some of the cheap coated strings, the coating eventually flakes off - not cool at all. So, I hate 'em, but if you dig 'em - go for it. |
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| Author: | Clay S. [ Mon Dec 13, 2021 7:17 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: strings for a twelver |
I think of coated strings as being mummified - they will last a long time but they are dead to start with.  Although I prefer the sound of Phosphor bronze it seems like the 80/20 strings maintain their sound longer, but I'm sure you will find many who disagree. There are many string tests on youtube so you might check them out. |
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| Author: | Barry Daniels [ Mon Dec 13, 2021 7:17 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: strings for a twelver |
I love Elixir Nanowebs. They sound good to me from the start and last at least 3x longer. But don't mistake them for the Polywebs. They stink. |
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| Author: | Freeman [ Mon Dec 13, 2021 8:00 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: strings for a twelver |
All three of my twelve strings get Elixer Nanowebs. Usually 10's if tuned to concert (which they never are), 12's for two semi tones down and for open tunings. The long scale ladder braced one gets 13's or even larger but its tuned in the cellar. All of these are available from Elixer as sets but you can put together the 12 and 13 sets from standard six string sets plus some singles. For my ears the long life of Nanos is an acceptable compromise, I frankly can't tell any difference from uncoated strings. |
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| Author: | Hesh [ Tue Dec 14, 2021 5:37 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: strings for a twelver |
I think they are BS. The nano webs are OK and acceptable but I agree they they sound a bit flat or used... out of the box and that's not what I like personally. The poly webs are terrible and the coating comes off and it shows too. Most of all the expense of these is not necessary in my view. I will also make the case that every year I clean and restring a couple dozen guitars here that are on display and may not have been played a single minute until the next string change a year later. So I can pick any one of these up with 12 month old, new strings and they still sound like new strings to me. I religiously control the RH in my home and have spent a lot of $$$ to make this possible. So my point is a $4.99 pack of D'Addarios unplayed but a year old sounds just as good to me as a $16 pack of coated strings a year later also unplayed. This is with proper RH control. Further we help lots of folks select strings if it's a gigging musician availability of replacements is key, always so the show does not have to stop. I would go with standard D'Addario strings and that's what I have always used too and have on everything I own. A 12 string is a different beast and you should consider that the criteria for a great sounding 12 is a bit different from a 6 string steel string. With a good 12 it's expected to have uber low action and be easy to play. It's also expected to rattle a bit, not a lot but a bit with some fret noise and that's also part of the charm of a good 12, they sound a bit different and less refined but more busy. Electric guitar action on a 12 can be a good thing and if hand strength if at all in play it can be necessary. You do not want heavy or medium strings on a 12 generally unless maybe one is Stevie Ray RIP. |
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| Author: | joshnothing [ Tue Dec 14, 2021 8:18 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: strings for a twelver |
Ah yes the coated string, which costs three times as much yet only lasts twice as long. That math never made much sense to me. |
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| Author: | mikemcnerney [ Tue Dec 14, 2021 8:57 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: strings for a twelver |
Thanks for all the comments. My original post was about coated but now I am wondering if switching from 10-47 to 11-52 is a good idea at all. I asked the Ian Weston (Ottawa local plek machine) who did my setup 1 year ago what the considerations are re. nut/saddle/ tension and he said it would probably have to be set up again with a higher tension. So I don't want to do that right now it plays lovely. It does bring up other questions. He says that medium strings....• Heavier gauge strings actually produce a bigger sound and more neck tension (see section on Hooke’s Law and how physics explains this phenomenon). In Short, the bigger the strings, the smaller the amplitude for a same attack, and therefore, lower action is achievable. Hooke’s Law: So that was part of my original motive. What do people think about this? |
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| Author: | Clay S. [ Tue Dec 14, 2021 10:23 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: strings for a twelver |
mikemcnerney wrote: Thanks for all the comments. My original post was about coated but now I am wondering if switching from 10-47 to 11-52 is a good idea at all. I asked the Ian Weston (Ottawa local plek machine) who did my setup 1 year ago what the considerations are re. nut/saddle/ tension and he said it would probably have to be set up again with a higher tension. So I don't want to do that right now it plays lovely. It does bring up other questions. He says that medium strings....• Heavier gauge strings actually produce a bigger sound and more neck tension (see section on Hooke’s Law and how physics explains this phenomenon). In Short, the bigger the strings, the smaller the amplitude for a same attack, and therefore, lower action is achievable. Hooke’s Law: So that was part of my original motive. What do people think about this? I agree with what he is saying, but also remember - the smaller the amplitude the quieter the sound. Most people hit mediums harder to make them louder. Guitars, in my experience, generally sound best when the tension of the strings is a good match for the soundboard. Too little tension and the strings can't drive the soundboard, too much and the guitar sounds harsh and tight. These are somewhat subjective, and some guitars can handle different tensions better than others. Also, having an instrument that is easy to play may be better than having one that sounds it's best for the typical amateur player. |
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| Author: | Freeman [ Wed Dec 15, 2021 12:12 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: strings for a twelver |
mikemcnerney wrote: Thanks for all the comments. My original post was about coated but now I am wondering if switching from 10-47 to 11-52 is a good idea at all. I asked the Ian Weston (Ottawa local plek machine) who did my setup 1 year ago what the considerations are re. nut/saddle/ tension and he said it would probably have to be set up again with a higher tension. So I don't want to do that right now it plays lovely. It does bring up other questions. He says that medium strings....• Heavier gauge strings actually produce a bigger sound and more neck tension (see section on Hooke’s Law and how physics explains this phenomenon). In Short, the bigger the strings, the smaller the amplitude for a same attack, and therefore, lower action is achievable. Hooke’s Law: So that was part of my original motive. What do people think about this? Mike, you haven't said what the scale is on your guitar or how you tune it. Lets assume that it is normal Martin long scale (25.4). I've clipped some typical string tensions of different string sets at different tunings from the FAQ at UMGF - they are representative of other manufacturers Elixir Acoustic Guitar Light 12 String 010/010 014/014 023/009 030/012 039/018 047/027 Standard tuning: 262 lbs. 1 halfstep down: 233 lbs. 2 halfsteps down: 208 lbs. D'Addario Phosphor Bronze Acoustic Guitar Strings - 12-string Extra Light 09/009 013/013 021/008 029/011 036/016 045/026 Standard tuning: 224 lbs. 1 halfstep down: 200 lbs. 2 halfsteps down: 178 lbs. Dean Markley Bronze 12-String Acoustic Guitar Strings - Medium .012/.012 .016/.016 .026/.010 .034/.017 .044/.024 .054/.030 Standard tuning: 366 lbs. 1 halfstep down: 326 lbs. 2 halfsteps down: 291 lbs. Martin Marquis 12-String 80/20 Bronze Light Acoustic Strings .012/.012 .016/.016 .025/.010 .032/.014 .042/.020 .054/.030 Standard tuning: 330 lbs. 1 halfstep down: 294 lbs. 2 halfsteps down: 262 lbs. Elixir Acoustic Guitar Heavy 12 String (for C# tuning) .013/013 .017/.017 .030/.014 .039/.018 .047/.027 .056/.035 3 frets down: 323 lbs. Surely no one tunes these up to standard. We'd have heard their guitar imploding. So your 11's at concert tuning are about 260 pounds, 12s are about 330, 11's would be half way in between, about 305. Consider that a normal set of lights (12's) on a sixer is 165, mediums (13's) are 185 or so. Consider that most 12 strings have slightly heavier bracing, maybe a slightly thicker top, maybe a 3rd tone bar but honestly they aren't that much beefier than a six. You can see from the numbers above that down tuning makes a dramatic difference in the tension on the top. If you down tune two semi tones and capo at the 2nd fret you are back in concert tuning and have the lower tension - you'll find many 12 string players do this. On other thing about 12 strings, when you down tune and don't capo you can change the jingle-jangle sound to a throaty roar - thing Huddie Ledbetter, Leo Kottke, Paul Geramia and many others. I use the 13's mentioned in the last box above on a long scale guitar and tune down four semi tones to C. My point is that you should consider a lot of factors when selecting strings for a 12 string - tension, playability, sound. And I will add that I use Elixer nanowebs on all three of my 12 strings and I typically change them every 4 to 6 months. I should do it more often but restringing a slot head 12 string is enough of a hassle. I think the Nano's are an acceptable compromise off cost vs life, if I only had one and played it more I might think otherwise. |
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| Author: | jfmckenna [ Wed Dec 15, 2021 3:10 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: strings for a twelver |
I personally like to go as light as possible on a 12. The only coated strings I like are EXP's and I have found them to be worth the value. But the one point Hesh made is definitely a good one, don't buy coated strings for a 12 because you want to keep them on for as long as possible. After about a month it doesn't matter if they are coated or not. But I have been experimenting with John Pearse strings lately. They sound brash for a couple days then sound really good for a week and then then slowly die off. The EXP's last about 3 weeks I'd say. Worth it? maybe. I don't change them as much as I used to so I like the freshness for a bit longer anyway. |
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| Author: | SteveSmith [ Wed Dec 15, 2021 5:35 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: strings for a twelver |
I've been using John Pearce strings on a sixer recently and I like the sound plus they seem to last a bit longer that my usual goto D'Addarios. |
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| Author: | mikemcnerney [ Wed Dec 15, 2021 11:14 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: strings for a twelver |
Thanks for all those numbers. Mine is a 24.9 join at 12th fret to body, tuned to concert. I've thought about tuning down but then isn't the amplitude think going to buzz on the frets?? |
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| Author: | Clay S. [ Wed Dec 15, 2021 11:46 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: strings for a twelver |
Thanks for all those numbers. Mine is a 24.9 join at 12th fret to body, tuned to concert. I've thought about tuning down but then isn't the amplitude think going to buzz on the frets?? _________________ Mike McNerney It might or might not - try it and see what happens, it won't cost anything to try. The 12 string Stella Huddie Leadbetter played had a 26 1/2 inch scale length - a full fret length (semi tone) longer than your 24.9 scale guitar. When he was tuning a full step down it would be like you tuning a half step down, tension wise. The tension figures Freeman quoted for a 25.4" scale length will be slightly lower for a 24.9" scale. I tend to prefer lighter gauge strings on 12 string guitars, but depending on the guitar and how you play you might like a heavier string. The beauty of guitar strings is they wear out reasonably quickly and aren't hard to change. |
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| Author: | Freeman [ Thu Dec 16, 2021 12:06 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: strings for a twelver |
mikemcnerney wrote: Thanks for all those numbers. Mine is a 24.9 join at 12th fret to body, tuned to concert. I've thought about tuning down but then isn't the amplitude think going to buzz on the frets?? The difference in tension is the square of the ratio of scale lengths so yours would have 0.96 times the numbers I posted. I was trying to give you a general idea of different sets at different tunings. The fact that its a 12 fretter doesn't matter. Will tuning down buzz? That all depends on your setup and how far you tune down. I am very careful about fretwork, have moderately low actions and my 12 strings do not buzz. I will say that my 24.9 scale Martin D12-28 does get kind of muddy if I go any lower than D, it is probably happiest at D# with the lights 10's. The Martin has pretty normal unscalloped 5/16 braces. My OM 12 is 25.4 scale, slightly thicker top than the Martin, three tone bars. I string it with 12's, keep it at D or some open tunings below that. The slot head is ladder braced, 26.5 scale, strung with 13's and tuned to C, I have put heavier strings on it and gone lower. The long scale helps mitigate the phat strings. Attachment: IMG_2023.JPG
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