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New Top or repair?
http://w-ww.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10101&t=54690		 Page 1 of 1
Author:  WaddyThomson [ Tue Jan 11, 2022 9:55 pm ]
Post subject:  New Top or repair?
This from my favorite customer! Student at Cleveland Institute. Picked up his case rushing for class. Case was not latched. Hit something, don't know what. I'm thinking, either way, the top is going to have to come off. I could never repair that top on the guitar, I don't think. Any ideas would be appreciated.

Attachment:
Disaster - Strings still on (Medium).jpg
Author:  Smylight [ Tue Jan 11, 2022 10:09 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: New Top or repair?
Oh boy. Following with a lot of interest.


Pierre
Guitares Torvisse
Author:  bobgramann [ Tue Jan 11, 2022 10:19 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: New Top or repair?
Take off the strings. If it fits back together neatly, a bit of hide glue (or fish glue if you want more working time) and you might get lucky. You’ll have to check for loose braces, of course. If it were one of my guitars, and if the easy repair wouldn’t work, I would retop it. I don’t like the break across the grain near the bridge. And, I would worry about cross grain breaks between the bridge and the soundhole. If there is a cross grain break between the bridge and soundhole, I would replace the top.
Author:  Pat Foster [ Tue Jan 11, 2022 10:48 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: New Top or repair?
Done a couple of those. Try for a fix. The top purfling can provide some leeway if you can work inside of the bindings. If it doesn't pan out, then replace it, but save your rosette! Be shame to have that work go down the drain.
Author:  WaddyThomson [ Tue Jan 11, 2022 10:49 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: New Top or repair?
The cross grain break is under the bridge at the right end. That's the place that scares me some. That bridge came off a couple of years ago, after a year of hard use, and I put it back on with stronger hide glue. There was a little tear-out on that end of the bridge that's in the air :D! I'm pretty much sure I'll re-top it. I don't even want to try to repair braces through the sound hole! I think I would take the top off either way - repair or replace. i can recycle the rosette and bridge without a problem. That said, this was a great sounding guitar. Maybe one of my best ever.

[url]https://youtu.be/gbwZZ8v33Ic]Here is Nate's High School Senior Recital.[/url]
Author:  Chris Pile [ Wed Jan 12, 2022 12:37 am ]
Post subject:  Re: New Top or repair?
YIKES! I'm with Bob. Try to repair it first.
Author:  Hesh [ Wed Jan 12, 2022 3:57 am ]
Post subject:  Re: New Top or repair?
Repair we have done a number of these just like this one with the top peeling up and they look far worse than they really are. This is not a difficult repair.

And - Hi Waddy! Hope you are doing great my friend.

Retopping in the professional repair world is not done very often and when it is it's either a labor of love, a valuable instrument or someone doesn't have enough to do. Some of us who do repairs for a living often comment on how extreme people on forums are when the reality is often a much more measured, careful approach with the valuable personal property of others. As it should be too some of these things are priceless or should be.....

Removing a fretboard as I have seen discussed three times here in the last couple of years is not something that several of us with an awful lot of guitars under our belts have ever done or know anyone who did either. Retopping is like this too, it does not happen often when compared to how many guitars receive repairs from a Luthier. It's a real exception.

We only did one out of this businesses over 10,000 repairs guitars now, a 1867 Martin that the original top was destroyed beyond recognition. With authentic bracing, new bridge, properly selected woods this job cost the client as much as a new Collings guitar. Maybe that's why it does not happen often.... ;) It also was a slog and I would not want to do it again. I prefer things with a more defined beginning, defined ending and always a mutually agreed upon definition of success. Arguably repair luthiers are not always set-up for retoppiing either with forms to support the rim being the kind of things we have to jig-up for a one off.

Anyway Waddy this is not big deal for a professional Luthier. Now the pros I know are all booked up right now beyond recognition..... We are as well and are on full stop on anything but a simple set-up. I know this to be the case with a number of the more well known shops.

Good luck to you.
Author:  Hesh [ Wed Jan 12, 2022 4:02 am ]
Post subject:  Re: New Top or repair?
Just read your last post about the bridge having lifted and I would still want to see if this could be repaired and if the prior repairs are part of the cause or OK.
Author:  jfmckenna [ Wed Jan 12, 2022 8:55 am ]
Post subject:  Re: New Top or repair?
Oh wow! I have never seen one so bad just from the old case latch failure. What the heck did that thing hit? I'm with others, repair it in situ.
Author:  Clay S. [ Wed Jan 12, 2022 10:07 am ]
Post subject:  Re: New Top or repair?
My initial thoughts were that retopping wouldn't be such a bad idea - it is a relatively "new" guitar and the work is being done by the original builder - the monetary value really wouldn't be affected and the guitar would be returned to it's undamaged condition.
On second glance I'm inclined to agree with the majority here. The splits in the top would be a relatively simple fix and the cross grain fracture would be hidden under the bridge wings. Regluing the brace end through the soundhole would not be that difficult. If well done, the repair would be inconspicuous and the guitar should sound as good as ever.
I built a ukulele for my brother which he accidently sat on. The top was damaged much worse than what that guitar is. I thought about retopping it, but instead fitted the pieces back together and did a little refinish work. It turned out O.K. - looked and sounded fine.
I'm certainly not a professional repair luthier, but deciding on a plan of work and working carefully, I think most of us can do a reasonable job on that type of repair.
Author:  DanKirkland [ Wed Jan 12, 2022 10:56 am ]
Post subject:  Re: New Top or repair?
Seen worse. Make a new top and save yourself from having to repair it in the future.

From the looks of it that top has alot of short grain in it which led to the cross grain break right next to the bridge.
Author:  wbergman [ Wed Jan 12, 2022 11:45 am ]
Post subject:  Re: New Top or repair?
Decades ago, Pepe Romero had a famous guitar crushed and splinted in air transit. Yuris Zeltins fit all the pieces together virtually invisibly and Pepe continued to record and concertize with the guitar for many years. What do you have to lose if you try to repair it, but cannot?
Author:  doncaparker [ Wed Jan 12, 2022 11:52 am ]
Post subject:  Re: New Top or repair?
wbergman wrote:
What do you have to lose if you try to repair it, but cannot?


I am not qualified to say whether this guitar's top should be repaired or replaced, but the obvious answer to this specific question is: Time. My time is the most expensive thing I put into my guitars, by far. If I thought an attempted repair was a waste of my time, I would not try it.
Author:  WaddyThomson [ Wed Jan 12, 2022 1:41 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: New Top or repair?
Thanks for all the opinions! I agree, it looks like it might not be too hard to repair. Maybe I'll give it a try and see if I can make it work. I need a plan. I suppose I need to see if I can get the cracks all to flush up without any issue. There is one crack on the left of the picture that isn't visible in the photo. It's straight up the grain. Shouldn't be a problem. Fix the cracks then attach to the linings, would seem to be the route. We'll see!
Author:  Trevor Gore [ Wed Jan 12, 2022 5:05 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: New Top or repair?
This came in the other day. It got stepped on.

Attachment:
P1040667s.jpg


It demonstrates the clear advantages of a bolt-on/bolt off neck. Expecting to repair this top and get anything like the original sound is just ludicrous, never mind the time it would take. This is a straight A candidate for a drop-in re-top, which is how I change tops on test-mule guitars.

This one has a drop-in re-top. In every way it's as good as new.

Attachment:
DSCF0218s.jpg
Author:  Clay S. [ Thu Jan 13, 2022 12:18 am ]
Post subject:  Re: New Top or repair?
Trevor Gore wrote:
This came in the other day. It got stepped on.

Attachment:
P1040667s.jpg


It demonstrates the clear advantages of a bolt-on/bolt off neck. Expecting to repair this top and get anything like the original sound is just ludicrous, never mind the time it would take. This is a straight A candidate for a drop-in re-top, which is how I change tops on test-mule guitars.

[]

I'm not sure the bolt on neck will make any difference in returning the guitar to it's original sound. beehive Adding the complication of a Tayloresque bolt on neck joint in anticipation of the "Bigfoots" of this world encountering one's guitar may not be the best reason for using it.
If it was a Torres guitar or other historically important guitar that top would probably be repaired rather than being replaced, but I agree, with a relatively new guitar being repaired by the original maker replacement makes more sense.
Author:  Hesh [ Thu Jan 13, 2022 4:02 am ]
Post subject:  Re: New Top or repair?
Trevor Gore wrote:
This came in the other day. It got stepped on.

Attachment:
P1040667s.jpg


It demonstrates the clear advantages of a bolt-on/bolt off neck. Expecting to repair this top and get anything like the original sound is just ludicrous, never mind the time it would take. This is a straight A candidate for a drop-in re-top, which is how I change tops on test-mule guitars.

This one has a drop-in re-top. In every way it's as good as new.

Attachment:
DSCF0218s.jpg


Now this is a retop for sure. And you're right Trevor the bolt on neck makes the retop easier too. I feel bad for whomever this belonged to and/or who sat on it, that was a really, really bad day.
Author:  jfmckenna [ Thu Jan 13, 2022 9:26 am ]
Post subject:  Re: New Top or repair?
Bolt on has nothing to do with the tone but it is certainly easier to remove for a retop repair. Waddy's looks like a Spanish guitar and if it's done with the traditional Foot then it makes it substantially more difficult. You would need to remove the fretboard. Of course any one of us here can do that too, but still.

BTW the best method I've come across for doing a retop is John Grevin's which sadly I just looked and it appears to not be online anymore. In short you rout the old top off leaving the bindings in place then mount the new top and add in new purfling and keep the original bindings and don't have to refinish the sides.
Author:  johnparchem [ Thu Jan 13, 2022 10:28 am ]
Post subject:  Re: New Top or repair?
jfmckenna wrote:

BTW the best method I've come across for doing a retop is John Grevin's which sadly I just looked and it appears to not be online anymore. In short you rout the old top off leaving the bindings in place then mount the new top and add in new purfling and keep the original bindings and don't have to refinish the sides.


I done 4 Grevin retops. The trick not mentioned above allows you to cut the new top to size. Before removing the old top temporarily (double side tape) mount the new top with only the rosette installed properly positioned on top of the old top using 2-3 mm tall spacers (plate cutoffs work). Then use a binding jig set to the purfling line of the old top to cut the top to the perfect size to drop in. If it is your guitar the binding jig set up exactly how the purfling ledge was cut is what we are going for.

Hesh "a labor of love" each time. I have repaired a guitar runover by a car without a retop.
Author:  WaddyThomson [ Sun Jan 16, 2022 11:28 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: New Top or repair?
Now that I have made a small space on one of my horizontal surfaces, I have further examined the top, and there is significant damage to the fan brace structure of the broken top. It definitely needs replacing. Funny thing is, I was searching through my tops, and I have another one from the same tree. It was one of Mario DaCoata's tops, Red Bear Bridge Stringer Lutz. I think I paid $10 for it at one of his auctions. I have started by removing the fingerboard. Began the process with an iron.
Attachment:
Iron Method (Medium).jpeg


That started off pretty well, but my 15 year old $3.00 Goodwill Iron died. It was slow anyway, and wasn't really hot enough, so I decided to try using my bending blanket with some quickly made insulators for the top. (Not exactly sure why!) The ruler seemed to be a good tool for lifting the fingerboard from the neck. Headstock against my stomach, and pulling both sides of the ruler with gloved hands. I did have to bore out my toothpick placement pins, but used the same drill I used to place them.
Attachment:
Blanket 1 (Medium).jpeg
Attachment:
Blanket 2 (Medium).jpeg


It all worked pretty well.
Attachment:
FB Off (Medium).jpeg


Next up, top removal.
Author:  Trevor Gore [ Sun Jan 23, 2022 1:44 am ]
Post subject:  Re: New Top or repair?
A bit of encouragement for Waddy...

This is the job that came in a couple of weeks ago.

This is how it looks now, after a drop-in re-top, just about to go into finishing.

Attachment:
P1040815s.jpg


Attachment:
P1040820s.jpg


Good luck with your repair, Waddy!
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