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Gibson L-0 Bracing
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Author:  Slim [ Sun Jan 30, 2022 11:14 am ]
Post subject:  Gibson L-0 Bracing
I have a set of the LMI drawings for a supposedly 20’s style l-0. This guitar has a sort of unique bracing pattern at least to me it’s unique, it’s not x braced but it doesn’t exactly look like ladder bracing I’ve seen on the net either.

It will be a while before I start on this project but I’m starting to gather info and make prep now. The plans show no radius profile from what I can see, but from the pics Ives seen online of the early Gibson flat tops seem to have radius. Anyone with any experience or advice for this type of bracing?
Author:  Hesh [ Sun Jan 30, 2022 11:37 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Gibson L-0 Bracing
Yeah they used a variation on what we call ladder braced these days. Braces at some angles and unequal distances between them, etc.

I believe that early, 20's Gibsons did have top domes so the braces were likely radiused a bit. John Hall here on the OLF might be able to help.
Author:  bluescreek [ Sun Jan 30, 2022 4:37 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Gibson L-0 Bracing
the few L0's I had in the shop match that braces I call it Ladder A bracing as the lower 2 flare some
Author:  Slim [ Sun Jan 30, 2022 5:37 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Gibson L-0 Bracing
I guess the braces extending to the lower & upper bout should get a radius but I’m not sure what else I should radius.
Author:  Colin North [ Mon Jan 31, 2022 6:43 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Gibson L-0 Bracing
X braced my12 fret Black Limba/Eurospruce L-0 commission on advice re volume/tone.
Very happy customer, commented favorably on volume and balance.
Author:  Slim [ Mon Jan 31, 2022 11:44 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Gibson L-0 Bracing
Wow Colin looks good! I’ve thought of going with x bracing but I believe I have made my mind up to go with the A ladder type on the plans. I’m just trying to determine what all will need a radius added.
Author:  Colin North [ Mon Jan 31, 2022 2:43 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Gibson L-0 Bracing
I used 28 foot. but no idea about original Gibson. Gotta try we a ladder braced sometime, got several pics, including an L-0 plan/template thingy.
Author:  SnowManSnow [ Mon Jan 31, 2022 10:14 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Gibson L-0 Bracing
I’ve x braces 4 of these w nonissue. Great shape … maybe on of my favs


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Author:  kwerry [ Tue Feb 01, 2022 1:52 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Gibson L-0 Bracing
I call it H bracing, built one L-0 shape with that style, sounded good (30' top radius) I use that body shape a lot but I use my regular double x style bracing on it usually and nowadays I use 40' radius or sometimes i do almost flat.
.

Kerry
Author:  David Newton [ Wed Feb 02, 2022 11:14 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Gibson L-0 Bracing
That "H-bracing" pattern was on the early L-0's in the 1920's. The L's of the 30's were X-braced, while the Kalamazoos and private market brands were ladder braced.
Funny thing about Gibson's X-bracing back then, it didn't have a lap-joint, one bar of the X was solid, while the other side was 2 pieces butted up to the solid brace. The linen cloth covered the secret of Gibson's hurry-up construction.
Author:  Clay S. [ Thu Feb 03, 2022 4:27 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Gibson L-0 Bracing
David Newton wrote:
That "H-bracing" pattern was on the early L-0's in the 1920's. The L's of the 30's were X-braced, while the Kalamazoos and private market brands were ladder braced.
Funny thing about Gibson's X-bracing back then, it didn't have a lap-joint, one bar of the X was solid, while the other side was 2 pieces butted up to the solid brace. The linen cloth covered the secret of Gibson's hurry-up construction.



I wonder if the "broken X" accounted for some of the difference in the sound between Gibson and Martin guitars? Are we "over bracing " by capping the X with a sliver of wood? Do people find more X brace failures on Gibson guitars?
Author:  hummingbird [ Tue Feb 22, 2022 9:31 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Gibson L-0 Bracing
For your curiosity here’s one that I just made with sort of a highbred X/Fan bracing. I didn’t want to chance the ladder bracing with steel strings. It seems to work pretty well on the soft white cedar top. This guitar is made of all local wood ie black walnut, white cedar, maple,White Oak.
Sorry the pictures are in the wrong sequence you’ll figure it out
Author:  Freeman [ Tue Feb 22, 2022 11:57 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Gibson L-0 Bracing
Slim, the GAL has a set of L-0 plans drawn by Ted Davis that show the H bracing. Is that the same one you have? Also both the GAL and MIMF have plans for an L-00 which is X braced.

What I see on the Davis plans is definitely not traditional ladder bracing.
Author:  phavriluk [ Tue Feb 22, 2022 2:26 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Gibson L-0 Bracing
That 'sliver of wood' is a structural necessity.
Author:  Slim [ Tue Feb 22, 2022 3:23 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Gibson L-0 Bracing
Freeman wrote:
Slim, the GAL has a set of L-0 plans drawn by Ted Davis that show the H bracing. Is that the same one you have? Also both the GAL and MIMF have plans for an L-00 which is X braced.

What I see on the Davis plans is definitely not traditional ladder bracing.


Yes mine are the Ted Davis set. The GAL plans appear to be identical to what I got from LMI. The plans are listed as a 20’s style Gibson L-0. Oh and yeah I agree the bracing is almost not ladder bracing but more of a H. I’m still not sure what braces on the top will be contoured or radiused because the plans don’t indicate a radius. I think the 2 long braces running north and south straddling the bridge and the brace in the lower bout will probably be all I shape.
Author:  Colin North [ Wed Feb 23, 2022 6:11 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Gibson L-0 Bracing
hummingbird wrote:
For your curiosity here’s one that I just made with sort of a highbred X/Fan bracing. I didn’t want to chance the ladder bracing with steel strings. It seems to work pretty well on the soft white cedar top. This guitar is made of all local wood ie black walnut, white cedar, maple,White Oak.
Sorry the pictures are in the wrong sequence you’ll figure it out

Sweet, looks great!
Author:  charlesa46741 [ Thu Feb 24, 2022 2:40 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Gibson L-0 Bracing
I've done a few of the L-O's from the Ted Davis plans. The first one used the bracing he shows. It has held up just fine and the owner likes the sound. I used a 25' radius for the top. Used an X-brace on the ones after that which worked OK as well. If I make another one I will go back to the ladder.
Author:  Slim [ Thu Feb 24, 2022 5:26 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Gibson L-0 Bracing
charlesa46741 wrote:
I've done a few of the L-O's from the Ted Davis plans. The first one used the bracing he shows. It has held up just fine and the owner likes the sound. I used a 25' radius for the top. Used an X-brace on the ones after that which worked OK as well. If I make another one I will go back to the ladder.



Charles do you remember which braces you radiused on the the original bracing scheme?
Author:  Hesh [ Fri Feb 25, 2022 10:53 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Gibson L-0 Bracing
Clay S. wrote:
David Newton wrote:
That "H-bracing" pattern was on the early L-0's in the 1920's. The L's of the 30's were X-braced, while the Kalamazoos and private market brands were ladder braced.
Funny thing about Gibson's X-bracing back then, it didn't have a lap-joint, one bar of the X was solid, while the other side was 2 pieces butted up to the solid brace. The linen cloth covered the secret of Gibson's hurry-up construction.



I wonder if the "broken X" accounted for some of the difference in the sound between Gibson and Martin guitars? Are we "over bracing " by capping the X with a sliver of wood? Do people find more X brace failures on Gibson guitars?


Yes I believe it does contribute to the differences in tone to some degree and some guitars simply sound like the top is freer than others and an uncapped guitar may be a freer sounding instrument.

No we do not see more X failures capped or uncapped and we would know with our high volume of guitars that we repair annually.

Where we do and have seen X-brace failure be there a cap or not is usually an injury so egregious to the instrument that the cap would make little difference anyway. Of the three that I recall one was sat on ny a 300 lb+ steward who fell on it when it was on the sofa. Not a good day for either.... One had been shot with a shot gun by a jealous lover as the steward was running down a stairway with a Martin D-35 and the OO buck shot went though the case and blew through the top and the last one was someone who leaned his guitar case on the back of his truck and then forgot it was there and backed completely over the instrument with his truck.

So my experience has the caps more of a sonic thing than a real hedge against injury and I do strongly suspect that a cap may be a bit too restrictive of the top for some such as bluegrass music where the "patch" is a bit of a compromise. Not as stiff as that sliver of wood that I always used too and also not completely devoid of any joint reinforcement as is the case with some guitars that have nothing.

Don't get me wrong I am sure that the little cap makes a huge contribution to the strength of the top. I just suspect that it may stiffen up things too much and not permit guitars which Mario P. once rightly described as not being unlike a bellows from pumping as efficiently as possible.

Clay you have noticed that the variance in approaches to the X brace intersection may be an intentional effort to free up the top. I've noticed that too and think that it is exactly that!
Author:  joshnothing [ Fri Feb 25, 2022 11:21 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Gibson L-0 Bracing
I seldom leave a heavy cap on the X - it’s either very thin or I use a cloth patch.

You can make this decision after the guitar is built.

There’s no part of the top bracing easier to shave after assembly than the top of the X. So you can cap your X, finish building the guitar, string it, play it, loosen the strings, take few swipes on the cap with a finger plane and tune back to pitch and try again. Continue until you are happy. If you feel you’ve gone too far you can easily recap with wood or massage a glue-soaked cloth patch over the intersection.
Author:  David Newton [ Tue Mar 15, 2022 9:36 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Gibson L-0 Bracing
I don't cap my X's. I use a linen patch for looks, or "tradition". If it wasn't for that, I would be happy not to apply a patch. I make my X-joint tight, and trust my glue.
I have been repairing and building guitars for 47 years now, X-brace failures are practically non-existent. Loose bracing? My bread and butter.
My opinion is that most guitars are over braced.

Clay S. wrote:
I wonder if the "broken X" accounted for some of the difference in the sound between Gibson and Martin guitars? Are we "over bracing " by capping the X with a sliver of wood? Do people find more X brace failures on Gibson guitars?
Author:  Colin North [ Wed Mar 16, 2022 4:23 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Gibson L-0 Bracing
I'll have to check my copy of "The Book".
Do I recall that when he talked about the Gibson J-45 he mentioned that the uncapped but cloth reinforced X brace seems to add favorably to it's sound production?
Author:  truckjohn [ Tue Mar 22, 2022 4:14 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Gibson L-0 Bracing
The "Majors" experimented with all sorts of bracing schemes at the advent of steel strings. There were all sorts of weird designs that hearken back to older schemes... Like for example, Gibson's arch top guitars seem to be braced like Cellos..

Pattern wise, I've become a fan of ladder bracing in small guitars. Done well, it really gives them a good sound, where X-bracing seems maybe too restrictive. Unfortunately, our perception of "quality" in old ladder braced guitars is often colored by some factory's "Budget" line built for kids. These were never designed to shine either way. That said, I'm not a fan of ladder braced tops over rosewood back and sides. They sound a lot better over mahogany, oak, maple, and the like.
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