Official Luthiers Forum!
http://w-ww.luthiersforum.com/forum/

Nut slots- parallel or angled?
http://w-ww.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10101&t=55137		 Page 1 of 1
Author:  Pat Foster [ Tue Jul 12, 2022 7:42 pm ]
Post subject:  Nut slots- parallel or angled?
I've pondered this for a long time in idle moments. Nut slots can be cut at an angle when viewed from above, following the path the string takes from the FB side of the nut to the tuner post. The string break is at the FB side. This routing seems to be prevalent on steel string guitars.

Attachment:
mine,angled.png


But on classicals, I've seen it both ways. Some prominent builders cut the slot parallel to each other, so the strings are straight and break at the tuner side of the nut.

Attachment:
parallel.png


Seems like a minor point, though parallel is certainly easier. I don't see any downsides either way. Any opinions?
Author:  Chris Pile [ Tue Jul 12, 2022 8:05 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Nut slots- parallel or angled?
I do what the guitar is telling me.... Took me awhile to learn to listen.
Author:  J De Rocher [ Tue Jul 12, 2022 8:55 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Nut slots- parallel or angled?
If a slot is cut at angle so as to point the string straight at the tuner post, then all that accomplishes is to move the point where the string is forced change direction from one side of the nut to the other.

If slots are going to be cut at angle (particularly the D and G strings), it seems to me it would make sense to cut the slot angle so as to split the difference between the angle to the tuner post and the line of the strings from the saddle to the nut. That would make the string bend through two angles at it passes over the nut, but each angle would be half as severe as the single bend that would result from cutting the slot to point directly at the tuner post.

Hope that makes sense.
Author:  bobgramann [ Tue Jul 12, 2022 9:05 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Nut slots- parallel or angled?
I’ve been cutting them straight so as not to have a sideways friction and wear point on the playing side of the nut. But, on the G and D strings, I file off the corner coming out of the slot toward the tuner such that the bend is gradual. It cuts down a lot on those strings sticking in the nut.
Author:  joshnothing [ Wed Jul 13, 2022 4:55 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Nut slots- parallel or angled?
In general, I’m like Bob, straight slots but with the rear of the slot fettled as appropriate to ease the exit angle of the string. I also ease the exit angle in the vertical plane as required.
Author:  Hesh [ Wed Jul 13, 2022 5:34 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Nut slots- parallel or angled?
I agree with J when we use this or that style all we do is move the points of potential friction somewhere else.

So as Chris said if you listen to the guitar she will tell you that she wants where the string exits the slot to not be binding either so maybe for lack of a better word to a very small degree "bell" that out, the slot exit.

But in my usual annoying manner it's far more important than the style of nut slot, pointed at the tuner or not to cut the slots low to improve intonation, make it easy to play and also be sure the slot does not bind and is a hair wider than the intended string(s). Do all these things and string breakage because of the style, style of nut slots you select won't happen and if it does you need to change strings more often.....

On classical guitars is where Chris listening to her that I relate too. This has bearing on if I wind on the left or right of the post hole too. So I select the side that will have the least angle out of the nut slot. This includes anticipating how many winds I will have as well.

It's usually the case that if you select a string path of least resistance all will be good. But again what J points out is very valid and it is what it is.

One more thing. How is what direction and to what degree a string exiting from a nut slot any different than the break angle of the string exiting the nut slots? Consider a slot head steel string and the extreme break angle on those... So with this said is this entire debate a solution looking for a problem. ;) You still have a string making a hard angle right out of the slot and it still works and has worked for over 100 years.
Author:  phavriluk [ Wed Jul 13, 2022 9:23 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Nut slots- parallel or angled?
Seeing as how a nut typically ramps down on the tuner side in an arc, I think nut slots aren't always fully engaged with the string for the full depth of the nut, i.e., the string is riding on a portion of the nut closest to the fingerboard. The rest of the string is hanging off in the air over the falling away rear portion of the nut. The less engagement, the less chance of binding as the string can more smoothly transition from nut to post.
Author:  Mike Collins [ Wed Jul 13, 2022 1:25 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Nut slots- parallel or angled?
I cut the slots as needed for the type of of headstock-slotted or solid.
If you use a file sand the slot with 220 or 320 to smooth the sharp edges and smooth
the slot!
the g & d strings may need the most angle of the slot .
Ya can figure out the rest!
1000's of nut made here since 1975.

Mike
Author:  Barry Daniels [ Wed Jul 13, 2022 2:48 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Nut slots- parallel or angled?
The vertical angle of the slot is halfway so why shouldn't the horizontal angle be a compromise?

In practice, however, I keep the two outer strings on both sides parallel and only slant the inside strings.
Author:  Hesh [ Thu Jul 14, 2022 1:48 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Nut slots- parallel or angled?
phavriluk wrote:
Seeing as how a nut typically ramps down on the tuner side in an arc, I think nut slots aren't always fully engaged with the string for the full depth of the nut, i.e., the string is riding on a portion of the nut closest to the fingerboard. The rest of the string is hanging off in the air over the falling away rear portion of the nut. The less engagement, the less chance of binding as the string can more smoothly transition from nut to post.


Yep and this is why Somogyi, our shop and many others round the nut slot toward the exit. Other than the risk, and it is a considerable risk or stubbing the metal file in the head stock this practice works well. Just be mindful of the head stock and the sharp end of the files.

But all these things, scraping the sides, rounding the back side of the slot become an integral part of how we move the files and is not even something that we think about after a while. It's simply now file technique for a nut slot.

Don't want this to sound hard or time consuming it's not.
Author:  Clay S. [ Thu Jul 14, 2022 5:14 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Nut slots- parallel or angled?
Hesh wrote:
"Just be mindful of the head stock and the sharp end of the files."

It might be a good idea to "ease" the edges of the ends of the nut files. They are rounded on the handle end - perhaps Stew Mac could put a slight radius on the "business" end. [:Y:]
Author:  phavriluk [ Thu Jul 14, 2022 9:33 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Nut slots- parallel or angled?
Masking tape is your friend.
Author:  Hesh [ Fri Jul 15, 2022 1:52 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Nut slots- parallel or angled?
Clay S. wrote:
Hesh wrote:
"Just be mindful of the head stock and the sharp end of the files."

It might be a good idea to "ease" the edges of the ends of the nut files. They are rounded on the handle end - perhaps Stew Mac could put a slight radius on the "business" end. [:Y:]


That would be a good idea and they, StewMac did do that with the diamond fret crowning files, rounded the two front corners.
Author:  jfmckenna [ Fri Jul 15, 2022 7:57 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Nut slots- parallel or angled?
I always tape a little piece of cardboard to the head stock when filing nut slots.

It happened to me once... Once! About 25 years ago when I was young, dumb, and over confident. Never again.
Author:  SteveSmith [ Fri Jul 15, 2022 8:35 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Nut slots- parallel or angled?
jfmckenna wrote:
I always tape a little piece of cardboard to the head stock when filing nut slots.

It happened to me once... Once! About 25 years ago when I was young, dumb, and over confident. Never again.


I has happened to me too. Worst one was when I dinged the top on a new gold top. I went down to a craft supply place about 10 years ago and bought a package of thin poster board stock for cheap. I cut it up to protect guitar tops, headstocks or whatever. I still have about 1/2 the package.

I also have both sizes of the StewMac low-tack tape and I use it liberally.

I look at the poster board and tape as quick, cheap insurance.
Author:  Hesh [ Sat Jul 16, 2022 2:07 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Nut slots- parallel or angled?
When I'm cutting a nut slot the very first thing I look at is my file position. I'm looking for it to be approx. half the head stock set back angle (unless angle is insufficient or non-existent) and I'm looking to see how close I am at that point to the headstock face with the end of the file. If I am pretty close I pull the file back and only use the last maybe 1/2" of cutting surface before the tip of the file. Since this is not used, this part of the file very often mine are usually one of the sharpest spots on the business end of my files making quick work of my time in that slot.

It's a good idea to protect the headstock face if you can (some have things in the way, string trees for one) and if you feel more comfortable this way.

You can purchase very thin cutting board material at cooking shops that make great, very durable and thin protectors for head stocks.
Author:  doncaparker [ Sat Jul 16, 2022 7:23 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Nut slots- parallel or angled?
Hesh wrote:
You can purchase very thin cutting board material at cooking shops that make great, very durable and thin protectors for head stocks.


I use these for several tasks. Covering the headstock (as Hesh describes), bumping up against braces while sanding the brace sides, so as to avoid leaving marks on the adjacent top or back, protecting the inside faces of slotted headstocks while filing string ramps, etc. They are easily cut with scissors, but they hold up to a lot of wear. My thin cutting boards are super handy. Great tip from Hesh.
Author:  Aaron O [ Sun Jul 17, 2022 1:38 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Nut slots- parallel or angled?
What Hesh said, cone shaped on the backside.

That said, I designed my headstock to have basically a straight pull.
Author:  Pat Foster [ Sun Jul 17, 2022 2:20 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Nut slots- parallel or angled?
Never thought of it as a problem, mostly aesthetics. I had done mine angled when using a Martin-style peghead. My later ones had the tuners laid out so the strings were mostly straight.
Author:  Hesh [ Mon Jul 18, 2022 2:44 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Nut slots- parallel or angled?
I don't know that having an angle exiting a nut slot really is a problem or if we just think it should be a problem. Like you guys I try to have minimum turns in the string paths too, seems like common sense it does.

In practice and I see a LOT of guitars in a single week and in reality I can't recall the last time that Dave and I ever stood there scratching our heads because strings exiting a nut slot were problematic.

Oh sure the heavy metal vomit music crowd with their Home Depot store of hardware on their Floyd Rose nightmare want to be sure that their dives and swells are unimpeded but the last time we encountered a string exiting a nut slot as an issue on an acoustic was..... maybe never.

What I encounter much more frequently are classical guitar owners who do not want the D string or the G string to touch the side of the slot for the tuners as strung. But a lot of stuff bothers the classical crowd and much of it is highly subjective Bull puckie that we won't get sucked into. Most common complaint is poor intonation usually from uber high nut slots. If you find my statement here a bit prejudicial against the classical guitar crowd they are different... to deal with and have sadly earned a reputation, generally speaking.... in our shop as often being drama queens. They also tend to be related to the Lute players of which one once accused me of being a racist because Lutes are ethnic instruments and if we don't work on Lutes, and we won't.... we must be racists :) I'm recalling when Lance wrote the swear filter for the OLF if A-hole was listed.

So let's see I just insulted the shredders, classical guitar crowd and may have lute players protesting outside our shop this AM now. :) There is still time to insult the Rikenbacker, Ov*tion and banjo folks too. ;) Kidding of course (kind of...).

By the way my remarks although not intended to piss off classical gutiar players/owners may in fact do just that. Even Somogyi noticed exactly what I speak of and he speaks to this in his book at how he set out to build classical guitars but switched to steel strings having found the classical crowd to be wrapped too tight for him too.

Anyway nut slots :)
Page 1 of 1 All times are UTC - 5 hours
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group
http://www.phpbb.com/