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ROS Discussion
http://w-ww.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10101&t=55228		 Page 1 of 2
Author:  Mike OMelia [ Wed Aug 31, 2022 1:18 pm ]
Post subject:  ROS Discussion
My ROS (2 of them, PC 390) are getting long in the tooth, replacement brakes and pads are hard to find and expensive. I liked this sander. Got used to it. Now its time to move on. I can find nothing like it on the market (low profile, 4.5"). So I am looking at what I think are the only real 3 options out there:

Mirka Deros 550CV, 125mm pad (5"), 5mm orbit (3/16") (https://www.mirka.com/en/p/Mirka-DEROS- ... ic-sanders) ($650)
Festool ETS EC 125/3 EQ Plus, 125mm pad (5"), 3mm orbit (+3/32") (https://www.festoolusa.com/products/san ... eq-plus-us) ($439)
3M Xtract (88762), 125mm pad (5"), 2.5mm orbit (3/32") (https://bindingsource.com/3m-xtract-ele ... ug-type-b/) ($426)

This is supposed to be a finishing sander, so in my book, Mirka is out. Curious why they do not make an corded ROS at 2-3mm orbit.

Festool is a good fit, but unless I am wrong, you can ONLY use festool discs (8 hole pattern diameter is larger than standard discs)

3M Xtract is a good fit, but unsure of hole pattern. Also, not heard much about this sander.

Can festool use the more standard paper? Am I wrong that Mirka does not make a Deros 2.5 mm in a 125mm pad? Does anyone know if Xtract can use standard paper? Is another sander option that I have missed?

Mike
Author:  Hesh [ Wed Aug 31, 2022 1:29 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: ROS Discussion
I have the Festool and have had it for 17 years and it's been flawless.

You can use other 5" papers and they will work, I used them all of the time but the Festool papers are such high quality, last a very long time and the dust collection IS better as you suspected that I used Festool papers most of the time. But you can use others if you wish.

Here is the money point for me to make. There was a time early on that I used two different professional finishers Joe (White) and Tony Ferguson and both of them independently took me aside and asked me what my routine was for final sanding because they never had to touch my instruments when I contracted them for finishing. They told me and showed me lots of stuff that others would send their way that was not even finished and ready for finishing so they dumped it on the finisher.... Anyway I was told by both Tony and Joe and Joe is here so he will verify that what he got from me right off the Festool 125 was ready to pore fill and spray. Never any scratches.

Now in the years since I stopped building guitars my sander has been used for a host of other things including knocking loose stain off my deck. It always performs flawlessly and I have a Festool dust extractor too and there is a thread here that I started back in the day where I tested the dust collection with black construction paper on horizontal surfaces and then I sanded an entire guitar with the Festool and the HEPA dust collector. No dust in my shop it all went in the bag.

Lastly my Festool drill is also 17 and I'm looking at new ones not because I need one but sheesh this thing has to die some day. In that time Dave my business partner who used to make fun of my $300 drill he's had 5 $125 drills... to my one Festool $300 drill.

Or, in other words the 125 has been one of the most satisfying tools I've very purchased and used - highly recommended.
Author:  bcombs510 [ Wed Aug 31, 2022 1:36 pm ]
Post subject:  ROS Discussion
I use the 3M xtract papers with a Festool sander, it just needs a specific interface pad to grip the paper. I like the xtract paper for wood. I’ve never used on finish.

Edit - re-read that you are planning for using it on finish. Will be interested to see what you find out. I don’t think I would use my Festool (5” ) on finish as it’s too heavy. It’s an older one .


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
Author:  Mike OMelia [ Wed Aug 31, 2022 1:46 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: ROS Discussion
which DC did you get Hesh?
Author:  Mike OMelia [ Wed Aug 31, 2022 1:50 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: ROS Discussion
bcombs510 wrote:
I use the 3M xtract papers with a Festool sander, it just needs a specific interface pad to grip the paper. I like the xtract paper for wood. I’ve never used on finish.

Edit - re-read that you are planning for using it on finish. Will be interested to see what you find out. I don’t think I would use my Festool (5” ) on finish as it’s too heavy. It’s an older one .


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


When I say finish, I mean all my sanding post the thickness sander. To included level sanding of finish. That Festool sander cannot weigh as much or more than my PC 390. I will check.

Edit: PC390 2.1 lbs, Festool ETS 125/3 2.65l lbs (does not seem significant)
Edit: Mirka MID55020CAUS: 2.2 lbs, MID62520CAUS, 2.24 lbs, and good grief, 3 lbs for 3M Xtract
Author:  doncaparker [ Wed Aug 31, 2022 1:59 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: ROS Discussion
Mike OMelia wrote:
Festool is a good fit, but unless I am wrong, you can ONLY use festool discs (8 hole pattern diameter is larger than standard discs)


You can also get good quality sandpaper from Klingspor that fits the Festool pattern. That's what I use, and I like it a lot.

Using a Festool sander with a Festool dust extractor is a real step up in quality and cleanliness, as far as I'm concerned. I'm glad I own mine.
Author:  Hesh [ Wed Aug 31, 2022 2:16 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: ROS Discussion
Mike OMelia wrote:
which DC did you get Hesh?


I think it's the CT 22 HEPA the medium sized one at that time. It's still going strong too all three of my Festool products have been rewarding to use and own.

I do remember it was around 130 CFM of extraction. I'm also the one who paired this dust extractor with a Performax 10 - 20 and used it that way for years until I got an 1,100 CFM dust extractor and in some ways the Festool worked just as good with 1/10th the suction.

One more thing they are integrated the dust extractor and the ROS so you need only turn on the ROS and the dust extractor starts too. When you turn off the ROS the dust extractor stays on for 5 additional seconds to clean the hose. Pretty cool and very clean.

And one more really last thing... :) variable speed on both devices so you can tune the dust extractor way down when you don't need the horsepower and it's very quiet that way too.
Author:  Mike OMelia [ Wed Aug 31, 2022 2:18 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: ROS Discussion
doncaparker wrote:
Mike OMelia wrote:
Festool is a good fit, but unless I am wrong, you can ONLY use festool discs (8 hole pattern diameter is larger than standard discs)


You can also get good quality sandpaper from Klingspor that fits the Festool pattern. That's what I use, and I like it a lot.

Using a Festool sander with a Festool dust extractor is a real step up in quality and cleanliness, as far as I'm concerned. I'm glad I own mine.



Don, do you use yours for body sanding? Finish work?

I just figured out that the 6" Mirka Deros can use a 5" pad (2.5 mm orbit)
Author:  Hesh [ Wed Aug 31, 2022 2:19 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: ROS Discussion
Mike OMelia wrote:
bcombs510 wrote:
I use the 3M xtract papers with a Festool sander, it just needs a specific interface pad to grip the paper. I like the xtract paper for wood. I’ve never used on finish.

Edit - re-read that you are planning for using it on finish. Will be interested to see what you find out. I don’t think I would use my Festool (5” ) on finish as it’s too heavy. It’s an older one .


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


When I say finish, I mean all my sanding post the thickness sander. To included level sanding of finish. That Festool sander cannot weigh as much or more than my PC 390. I will check.

Edit: PC390 2.1 lbs, Festool ETS 125/3 2.65l lbs (does not seem significant)
Edit: Mirka MID55020CAUS: 2.2 lbs, MID62520CAUS, 2.24 lbs, and good grief, 3 lbs for 3M Xtract


Yeah it's light and I always liked how it was easy to hold with one hand so I can manipulate the instrument with the other hand. Mine has a hose to the dust extractor and I can't remember if the hose came with the ROS or the dust collector.
Author:  doncaparker [ Wed Aug 31, 2022 2:30 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: ROS Discussion
Mike OMelia wrote:
doncaparker wrote:
Mike OMelia wrote:
Festool is a good fit, but unless I am wrong, you can ONLY use festool discs (8 hole pattern diameter is larger than standard discs)


You can also get good quality sandpaper from Klingspor that fits the Festool pattern. That's what I use, and I like it a lot.

Using a Festool sander with a Festool dust extractor is a real step up in quality and cleanliness, as far as I'm concerned. I'm glad I own mine.



Don, do you use yours for body sanding? Finish work?

I just figured out that the 6" Mirka Deros can use a 5" pad (2.5 mm orbit)


In order to avoid confusion, I'll call the different things sanding wood, and sanding finish. I for sure sand wood with my Festool sanders. I have experimented with sanding finish with them, too. Things happen fast with the Festool, so I often just sand finish by hand. But, as a good example, I am in the middle of experiments with UV cured finishes, and I want to move fast on my test boards, so I definitely use my Festool sanders for that.
Author:  bluescreek [ Wed Aug 31, 2022 2:58 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: ROS Discussion
festool for me
Author:  SteveSmith [ Wed Aug 31, 2022 3:59 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: ROS Discussion
I bought a Mirka 5" a long time ago mostly because I have carpel tunnel. It's a good sander. I replaced a Makita 5" which was beating my wrists to death.

I used the Mirka until Festool had that special sale on their 5" 125 and the deal was too good to pass up so I got one of those. It's a better sander. Recently I bought a 3" Festool that I just use for sanding sides.

I've used all of them to finish sand body and necks. The Festools do a better job in my opinion (I don't even use the Mirka anymore). I use Abranet type sanding discs and some Festool discs. The Festool discs are high quality and work well.
Author:  Toonces [ Wed Aug 31, 2022 6:54 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: ROS Discussion
I tried one of the new Festool ETS EC sanders -- the brushless DC version which is more expensive but less vibration. I also demoed the Mirka Deros, and 2 AirVantage sanders.

The Festool is very nice but I didn't like how it behaved on edges when the body was half-on and half-off. It produced a very weird jumping motion. I had an old Festool ETS (regular version) that didn't do that. Not sure what was going on. On flat surfaces where the whole pad was on the wood, it was an excellent sander. However, my favorite sanders are definitely this AirVantage sander. It is as close to a dynabrade pneumatic as you can currently find. Hands down -- the best electric sander on the market. AirVantage is the manufacturer and they also sell this sander rebranded as SurfCat but for more money. SurfCat gets a lot of great reviews.


This version of the AirVantage is similar to the Mirka Ceros. It is very lightweight and comfortable with minimal vibration. Again, about as close to a Dynabrade as you'll find with an electric. Obviously, if you have air then go pneumatic -- electric sanders will never quite match a pneumatic sander.

https://www.amazon.com/AirVANTAGE-Palm- ... r=8-2&th=1

I have the 3/32" orbit 5" and have been using it for a couple of years now. I much prefer it over the Festool ETS. The Festool ETS EC and Mirka Deros are excellent sanders and you won't be let down by any of them.
Author:  dofthesea [ Wed Aug 31, 2022 11:47 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: ROS Discussion
Festool al the way.Lucky me Im a general contractor so I get crazy on Festool. I have 28 tools by Festool. They are perfection. Even the sandpaper is good quality
Author:  Woodie G [ Thu Sep 01, 2022 6:10 am ]
Post subject:  Re: ROS Discussion
If an upgrade to the shop compressor is not something in the budget, then the Festool ETS-125 with a pad swap to something a bit firmer should work well (and prevent the hoppy-skippy movement sometimes seen when suction is set too high with a softer pad), and is an entry to the Festool ecosystem of tools that includes the excellent CT-26 extractor I used for a few years and the only-slightly-less-useful CT-Mini I use now. I don't see a downside to Festool papers... buy in reasonable quantity and they cost no more than the pro grade 3M products. We used screen hook and loop abrasives on a routine basis for shell leveling, filler, and finish sanding on both the ETS-125 and the Dynabrades (again, a firmer pad is a must for shell work), and the CT-26 provided excellent dust pickup across the range of abrasives.

On the Dynabrade air option... the tools tend to be less expensive than the professional-grade corded tools like the Festool, Mirka, etc., and total cost for something like the Quincy QT-54 installed just before I departed Greenridge with self-run 30A circuit, some reasonable air plumbing, a timer-operated tank drain, etc. is about $3K. If you do not have a compressor which provides 15-20 CFM at at least 90 PSI and rated for continuous duty, there will be a not-insubstantial investment to get to a system capable of driving most air tools. I'm not suggesting you'll see a favorable return from the air-versus-electric sander cost differential in any reasonable time frame, but if you use air for other purposes and wish to get away from what are ultimately disposable smaller, usually imported compressors, that lower cost for air tools might be a good reason to 'justify' the upgrade.

One consideration... if the compressor will live outside in a shed (hint... it NEEDS to live somewhere isolated from your workspaces and on a concrete pad with hockey puck dampers on the feet), the automatic drain valve and a low voltage drain line heater will address freezing temperatures, and the noise generated by a big compressor.
Author:  Mike OMelia [ Thu Sep 01, 2022 6:47 am ]
Post subject:  Re: ROS Discussion
I appreciate all the replies. I think, all things considered, I will go with the Festool. A relevant concern is the ability to use up the not insignificant amount of disks I already have (then switch to Festool type). Another concern is the Mirka paddle. I like the power button location on the Festool, and speed control dial. I am used to that type of control. I also reviewed the warranty which includes a "wear and tear" feature. Nice! I like the almost instantaneous stop feature. Reviewed the parts diagram. There is no brake that has to be replaced (hated that on PC 390).

I see it comes with soft pad. Does anybody use ultrasoft or hard pads?

Which DC? I want one with wheels.

Mike
Author:  doncaparker [ Thu Sep 01, 2022 7:28 am ]
Post subject:  Re: ROS Discussion
Mike—

On the dust extractor, if you go with Festool (and I think that would be a great choice), you should get one with the variable suction. Not all models have that. If you get one without that feature, you can add a section of plastic pipe that has a bleeder valve. That’s what I did, and it works fine, but getting one with that feature built in would be better.
Author:  SteveSmith [ Thu Sep 01, 2022 8:15 am ]
Post subject:  Re: ROS Discussion
Mike , I’ve got a Festool midi I believe. I don’t need it for sanding with the ROS because I have a nice downdraft table. I do use it for DC on my small disc/belt sander and it works very well. I also use it at the bench and for general cleanup. It’s an awesome vacuum and well worth the exorbitant cost.


Steve
Author:  Woodie G [ Thu Sep 01, 2022 8:54 am ]
Post subject:  Re: ROS Discussion
The CT-22/26/36/48 series has speed (suction) control and the larger the bag, the less frequently it needs to be changed, but the less likely it is to be able to live under a bench. The CT-26 seems like a good match if space is not a major issue.

There are three pads for the ETS-125... a gray, black, and blue in ascending order of firmness. The black works well on flat and arched surfaces. The blue is really only for dead flat surfaces nd for sanding table/cabinet edges with minimal bearing.
Author:  jfmckenna [ Thu Sep 01, 2022 9:21 am ]
Post subject:  Re: ROS Discussion
Festool with Festool papers for me too.
Author:  joshnothing [ Thu Sep 01, 2022 6:04 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: ROS Discussion
Interested in people’s thoughts on bags for the Festool vacs - are folks using the disposable or reusable bags? Will the reusable bags work for fine sanding dust?
Author:  SteveSmith [ Thu Sep 01, 2022 6:17 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: ROS Discussion
joshnothing wrote:
Interested in people’s thoughts on bags for the Festool vacs - are folks using the disposable or reusable bags? Will the reusable bags work for fine sanding dust?


Disposable but I'm not as financially challenged as I was when I was younger plus I'm lazier now too ;)
Author:  Mike_P [ Thu Sep 01, 2022 7:36 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: ROS Discussion
I reuse the disposable bags by carefully emptying them out...at some point you've done it enough times that you need to put a new one in...

YMMV
Author:  Pat Foster [ Thu Sep 01, 2022 7:45 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: ROS Discussion
Festool ES 125 for me too. I had the jumping issue that Toonces mentioned until I switched to a firmer pad. Bear in mind the suction holes are on a different diameter pattern than most ROS, so outside of Festool discs, selections are limited; I can use my old stash of Abranet when I run out of the Festool discs.
Author:  Hesh [ Thu Sep 01, 2022 8:48 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: ROS Discussion
joshnothing wrote:
Interested in people’s thoughts on bags for the Festool vacs - are folks using the disposable or reusable bags? Will the reusable bags work for fine sanding dust?


Are you supposed to change the bag? Mine is 17 years old and I didn't know that... :) Just kidding I use the disposable bags, CT-22 here.
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