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I am in the process of starting on a (28.6") ultra short scale electric bass and have the neck blank with truss rod installed and am getting the fretboard ready to glue on.

I used Fret Finder to layout the fret spacing and printed it out full scale. My plan is to glue the template on the fretboard and use it to cut the fret slots.

I have not used Fret Finder before to actually do this and am wondering if anyone here has done this?

Is it accurate? or should I just use the actual measurements that it spits out and measure each fret?

Everything I have built so far has been a "standard" scale length and I have a SM fret ruler (for use with their slot cutter). I do not use their jig and prefer to cut them by hand and so far (4 guitars, 2 electric/2 acoustics) have turned out quite good as far as intonation.

Any info on this would be helpful.

Thanks,
Bob

As a side note: I have done repair work for a number of years, a couple of years ago I got pretty sick and stopped doing any work. After I started getting better I decided to stop doing repair and focus on building. So although I know a lot about repairing guitars building is a different game and I am still learning. I still do some light repair (fretwork, setups etc.) but only for my best clients but it is not the direction I want to go. This bass is an experiment that I have wanted to do for a while now and I have a client that wants one so I thought I would build one for me and if it turns out good I know he will want one

Bob—

This won’t help you this go-around, but here is something I did when planning out a baritone guitar: use a bass guitar standard fret template from StewMac, and “choke up” a fret or two. In other words, move the nut to where the first fret is on the template. You have to do the math for bridge location, but it worked out great for me. I then cut the fret slots using my normal table saw template system.

Any idea how one would do that for a 28.6 scale. I have replaced fretboards in repair but have always used the original for the slot placement so it was pretty much copying what I had. I have never tried to do a "unconventional" fretboard before so this is all new to me...

Thanks,
Bob

Take your desired scale length of 28.6" and repeatedly multiply by 12th root of 2 (1.0595). First time gives 30.3", second time gives 32.1", third time gives 34.01". Bingo! 34" is a common bass scale. So buy a pre-slotted 34" and cut it off at fret 3. Technically you will have a 28.59" scale, but that's close enough you can ignore it, since you should have plenty of room in intonation adjustment to correct for it.

As for gluing on paper templates, I've never tried it, but the main thing I'd worry about is the paper expanding from water based glue and getting stretched a bit as you press it down onto the board. If you can find some long sheets of sticker paper, that would probably work great.

I have used wfret to do what you are describing. I would print it out and then measure from the nut to the 12th fret to determine if it was printed accurately. If the measurement wasn’t exactly half the scale length, I would adjust the input scale length and print again until I got a printed paper template that matched what I wanted. Cutting on the paper lines didn’t work well for me. I tape the paper template to the fingerboard (still a rectangular blank) and notch the side of it at each fret location. Then I use my table saw fret cutting sled and blade to cut the slots as if there were a template, using the side if the fingerboard as the template. I only do this for a one-off. If I will be making another with the same scale length, I go ahead and make a polycarbonate plastic template starting with the adjusted wfret printout.

Hi Bob,
I haven't used fret finder. I am distrustful of printed paper templates for fingerboards (they may be fine).
What I usually do is use Stew Mac's online fret calculator which gives both a nut to fret distance and a fret to fret distance. Because I don't like converting decimal inches to fractional inches I convert the scale length to millimeters (28.6" = 726mm) and use a meter scale to layout the board. If I had a scale that was marked in 100ths of an inch I might use that. As Stew Mac suggests, I measure from the nut to the fret each time, rather than fret to fret - this makes it less likely slight measuring errors will add up to something significant.

@DennisK I only wish my brain worked like that! Thanks for spoon-feeding me

I have done paper templates before and would not use water based glue for the very reason you pointed out. I use 3M spray adhesive for real sticking power and use 3M Photo mount for light duty stuff.

@bobgramann I did check the 12th fret measurement and it is exact to the center of the line. I also checked the measurements on a few frets and they were also accurate.
This may very well be a one-off, but making a plastic template would be a good way to make it repeatable.

@Clay S. "I am distrustful of printed paper templates for fingerboards"

Yea I kind of feel the same, That's why I am asking
I did use SM fret calculator on this and it pretty much matches Fret Finder, both have nut to fret and fret to fret measurements.

I would like to just use the print-out but not sure the best way to do it. I may just use the measurements like you say and lay it out by hand... I was hoping to find a shortcut

Cheers,
Bob

If you spray glue the paper printout to the fretboard blank and check the measurements it might make an easy to see cutting guide

I slot fretboards on a homemade tablesaw, so I put a strip of masking tape on the back of the board and mark the fret positions along one edge. I line the marks up with a fiducial mark on the cross slide to cut the slots. A fine black line on masking tape is easier for my old eyes to see. I do this just before cutting the slots so I don't worry about the tape moving.

That is sort of what I was thinking but was looking for anyone that had any experience. It sounds like some of you just measure it out on the board which may be the most straight forward way shy from buying a bass rule from SM (I tend to only buy tools that I can't make or adapt from somthing else)

Thanks for the info Clay, Sounds like your method is pretty straight forward.

Cheers,
Bob

Rus, my last was a fanned-fret, and that’s exactly how I laid them out. Printed the file full size at Kinko’s, checked measurements with a caliper to ensure accuracy, used spray adhesive, then checked the measurements again.

I didn’t have any problems cutting through the paper, but you can scribe the frets with an Xacto or scalpel to mitigate any theoretical concerns.


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@James Orr,

Thanks James, It seems that Fret Finder and the SM tool must be accurate if you did a fan fret using it. Not sure I would attempt doing fan frets at this point but find it quite interesting. First time I saw one I couldn't figure out what I was seeing. I originally thought the photo was somehow out of perspective...

I guess the only thing I have to loose by using a paper template is a fretboard and time.

It is good to know that others are/have used templates like this with success so I will give it a go and see.

Thank you all for the help,

Cheers,
Bob

We usually had students duplicating the array of fret templates in the shop as they wrapped their projects. Other than one of the SM standard scale templates, all were made up from WFRET (no one at Greenridge ever voluntarily used a PC other than to use WFRET for a project that required a new template). I would love to see someone port WFRET to the Mac OS or perhaps make it web-enabled, rather than have to run it on an old PC or using a PC emulator on the Mac.

I like Mr. Kincheloe's option of modifying the SM bass template... just use the 3rd fret location as the nut and mill in one more fret location at the other end with a Dremel cutting disc and a warding file (it will be spaced 25.977" from the original template's nut location, or 0.477" from the 24th fret location). 25 - 3 frets gives you a 22 fret 28.590 scale bass, so just a very minor adjustment of the bridge location (although it may very well be within the range of your bridge's saddle compensation adjustment without shifting things).

We used WFRET quite often for custom scales on older instruments as well as new, correctly intonated fretboards for instruments with significant bridge placement errors. As long as you understand the errors from printer and paper, no real issues working around them.

- If RH in the shop is significantly different from where the printer is located, consider placing a wirelessly connected printer in the shop (we used ours with our laptops, and just kept a cover on it when not in use) so tha the paper is at shop RH.

- To establish printer error, set print to get a landscape scale template, determine the nut to last fret distance, then print and assemble. Landscape should provide a two-piece template for guitars and shorter scale bass, so the error introduced from trimming and assembly is minimized versus three or more pieces. Error may be different between landscape and portrait orientations. Once known, this error may be applied via print scaling or a percentage increase or decrease in scale length within WFRET.

- We usually waited 10 minutes after printing to reassemble with mylar 3M Scotch tape, then taped the WFRET template to the aluminum blank, using a 1/16" kerf blade to notch. I always found it more accurate to scribe a little line on the saw top as a reference for alignment, but for those that wish to keep the saw top pristine, the blade can be aligned power off, then cut... a true blade will give a consistent offset, and an untrue blade will give a consistent offset at the same tooth. Either way, errors on a good cabinet saw are usually 0.010" or less, so well under a cent of pitch error at guitar or bass scale lengths.

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Cutting slots is my next project. Made a box to slide the still rectangular board in.

I will glue strip of paper on the center of the board, just so the pencil mark is easier to see. Use the twelfth root multiplier, and find all your numbers. I use metric. 64's only work good for checking action. I saw by hand, so I can take a little.cut at the edge, and measure the distance direction a caliper.

Measuring with a caliper is an art. It is trickier than a micrometer, and people have trouble with that. The frets don't have to be + or - .0005-.001 like when I was at the shop, but they should be close.

You have to subtract 1/2 the slot width on the first slot, and the entire.slot width on the rest of them. You can even double check with longer dimensions; 2-6 fret or so, to be sure it is all good.

I've done two, well 3: but the first one, I just did, and didn't think about. It came.out fine.

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Why be normal?

Good point on rules. I have metric rules in 1/2mm grads and imperial in 50th of an inch grads... that works out to about 0.020" between grads on either, so the same accuracy. Rules graduated in 1/64" increments are a little more accurate at 0.016" between grads, but I find the 1/2mm and 1/50th inch grads are about as fine as I can make out with my usual 2.5x shop magnifiers.

There were some rules in the Greenridge shop that had 1/100 grads (0.010" between grads), but required a 5x-7x hand magnifier for me to use, so while they were touted as possessing twice the accuracy as 1/2mm or 1/50th grad rules, I did not find that it was accuracy I could comfortably access.

_________________
For the times they are a changin'

- Bob Dylan

@Woodie G, Thanks for that info, I think I may end up just measuring each fret and lay out the lines on an aluminum rule.

Last night I measured my paper template from the nut to the 12th fret and it is 1/32nd off (too long). I printed out another one just to double check and that was the same. I am not sure if that 1/32 would make a difference but I am somewhat a perfectionist and am reluctant to just go for it.



I sure wish I had the math gene... I do understand this since you laid it out for me but to figure that stuff out on my own...

I can't get my head around trying to use a longer scale rule and cutting frets off to get to the scale I want, so I think it may be easier for me to just lay out the scale using the measurements. This is going to be a 20 fret - 28.6" scale. The reason is because I don't want to pinch the frets so close together that it makes it hard to play up the neck.

@Ken Nagy

I have a couple of good calipers and all the measurements from Fret Finder so I should be able to do it manually.

Thanks for the ideas and help,
Cheers,
Bob

Conceptually, it is the same thing as using a capo. Does that help?

I do understand the concept, but not the math. I am an artist so I am right brain. I think my left brain gave up years ago... LOL Now if you ask me to draw or paint something I can do that easily.

Fortunately My Brother-in-law is a retired die-maker, I just gave him a call and told him what I was trying to do. I am going over to his shop tomorrow and he is going to help me make an aluminum rule that I can use to cut the frets on this one.

So I am confident that with my brother-in-laws help I can get this very accurate. When I talked to him about it he knew exactly what needed to be done and he has all the tools to do it.

Cheers,
Bob

Save yourself some headache and get a template made, LMI makes them

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Well, if you start with the type of template I'm talking about, the math really is just measuring and subtraction. If you start with a fretting template for a 34" scale bass, and you turn the first fret into the nut, you no longer have a 34" scale. It is a scale that is 34" minus the distance from the template's nut to the first fret. So, you just measure the distance from the nut to the first fret on the template, subtract that from the 34", and that is the length of your scale. Do the same thing a few times until you get to a scale length that is in the ballpark that you want.

Something to keep in mind is that fretted instruments use a mathematical compromise to achieve "equal" tempered tuning. No matter how precise your measurements are the notes are going to be somewhat out of tune, more or less, depending on what key you are playing in. Also the relative accuracy needed becomes greater as the distance between frets becomes smaller, but string stretch also has a greater effect in the upper positions, making accurate placement more difficult (and dependent on string gage (stiffness) and height of the action).
All things considered it's not worth stressing about and measuring with an accurate rule and marking with a fine tipped pen is good enough.

Well there's the problem... I'm Scottish I am not afraid of spending money but if I can make something just as good I prefer to keep my money.




Maybe I don't understand but doesn't the distance between each fret down the fretboard change with each scale length?

I understand if you cut the fist fret off it is just a shorter scale length but won't that be different proportions than one that has been measured?





I do have a very critical ear, I have repaired a lot of cheap junk guitars (I use to do that and give them away just to learn repair). I can tell immediately when intonation is off. I am also a perfectionist so I want to get it as accurate as I can.

I have never laid out a fretboard before so it is something I want to know more about. I already know a lot more than I did when I made the first post so "there's that!"

I appreciate all your help,

Cheers,
Bob

“Maybe I don't understand but doesn't the distance between each fret down the fretboard change with each scale length?”

Well, yes, but that automatically happens when you move the nut from where the nut is to where the first fret is. Just imagine that all the frets, the bridge, and the saddle stay in the same place, no matter what. If you move the nut to where the first fret is, then the scale length is shorter, and all the frets are a little closer together than they were before, because you moved fret 1 to where fret 2 used to be, etc. Just like when you use a capo.

“I understand if you cut the fist fret off it is just a shorter scale length but won't that be different proportions than one that has been measured?”

No, it won’t. Go grab a guitar and a capo and play around with this. You will get it.

OK, I think I may be getting it...

If I understand this correctly, You should be able to make a "Master" fret template that would do an electric upright bass and a mandolin. It would just depend on where along the template you decided the nut should be. So... No matter where the nut is you can count 12 frets down and that would be half of your scale length.

Am I close

Cheers,
Bob

So I have been searching to get my head around this and just found this (Yea I know) YouTube vid that I think explains this pretty clearly.

Its by Susan Gardener and she gets a bit bogged down about nut compensation but even that is good info.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a9A_yQ4Odog

If this is not accurate info then let me know and I will remove the link.

Thanks
Bob

You are close. The thing to keep in mind is that, if the starting place is slightly different, everything else changes in relative fashion. For instance, if you use a 25” scale instead of a 25.4” scale, they are not interchangeable with each other. The bass to mandolin example you offered might not yield a scale that is customary for a standard mandolin, for example. But yes, the point is that frets have a specific relationship to each other and to the scale length in order to have each fret give you a semitone difference in frequency, relative to the scale length.