Oh man! I really could have used this video a few months ago
I found a tutorial the Bruce Sexauer has on MIMF (I think?) which was helpful but there really is not a lot out there on line on techniques for doing this. So this will be very helpful.
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| carving martin Volute / Diamond http://w-ww.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10101&t=55426 |
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| Author: | bluescreek [ Sun Dec 25, 2022 7:37 am ] |
| Post subject: | carving martin Volute / Diamond |
I have a video coming out shortly on this subject but here is a simple step by step. Square up off the end of the fretboard. Roll the joining planes of the head stock I used Jeff Jewitts colors on this I found you mix about even medium brown with red brown matched the martin color |
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| Author: | jfmckenna [ Sun Dec 25, 2022 9:39 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: carving martin Valoute |
Oh man! I really could have used this video a few months ago I found a tutorial the Bruce Sexauer has on MIMF (I think?) which was helpful but there really is not a lot out there on line on techniques for doing this. So this will be very helpful. |
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| Author: | Chris Pile [ Sun Dec 25, 2022 9:44 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: carving martin Valoute |
That's 4 aces, John! |
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| Author: | bluescreek [ Sun Dec 25, 2022 10:21 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: carving martin Valoute |
Glenn is editing the video and will be up soon |
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| Author: | Dave Rickard [ Sun Dec 25, 2022 10:48 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: carving martin Valoute |
Thanks John looking forward to it. |
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| Author: | Ken Nagy [ Sun Dec 25, 2022 10:59 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: carving martin Valoute |
I never have understood, what a volute was, so Iooked up Martin volute, and it is a one piece neck? With what looks like a fake baroque Vee-join? I see how it adds strength. The Vihuela I'm starting has the same thing. From the 1500's. The video might help sort that idea out. I did start it; maybe I'm not too far down the wrong path! I also never knew Fender type electric necks were so strange, and stronger. I've never looked at any. |
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| Author: | bluescreek [ Sun Dec 25, 2022 11:39 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: carving martin Valoute |
the martin volute is a left over from the day the neck headstock was attached by a bridal joint. so the 28 series used that joint then the 18 series down used a V joint as the cost of labor rose the neck was then made from a single piece of wood. So look up Martin Bridal joint to get a better understanding on how the volute evolved |
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| Author: | Pat Foster [ Sun Dec 25, 2022 3:14 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: carving martin Valoute |
John, I searched the web but couldn't find any images of the Martin v-joint. I'm curious to see it. Do you have any? |
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| Author: | bcombs510 [ Sun Dec 25, 2022 3:22 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: carving martin Valoute |
Is this also called the birds beak joint? There are articles out there on that. Robbie O’Brien had a course on how to construct it. https://obrienguitars.com/courses/birdsbeak Brad Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro |
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| Author: | meddlingfool [ Sun Dec 25, 2022 3:24 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: carving martin Valoute |
You need to search for Martin bridal joint… |
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| Author: | Alan Carruth [ Sun Dec 25, 2022 3:51 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: carving martin Valoute |
You might get there quicker if you search for bridle joint... |
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| Author: | bluescreek [ Sun Dec 25, 2022 4:45 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: carving martin Valoute |
this is the bridle joint |
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| Author: | Pat Foster [ Sun Dec 25, 2022 6:17 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: carving martin Valoute |
Aha. The old bridle joint I'm familiar with. I've built some classicals with a v-joint; they're used a lot on classical guitars. I was real curious if Martin had one. |
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| Author: | jfmckenna [ Sun Dec 25, 2022 6:35 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: carving martin Valoute |
The other key word I found when searching for tutorials on making these a few months back was 'dart.' Seems that a lot of people like to call it a dart, for obvious reasons, but I always called it a volute. Even though they are faux it seems to me it would still strengthen the area at the end of the truss rod channel which is a high stress area so that's good. Some of those old joints you can see the beak or the dart under the finish but they are flush. I'm reminded of some of the old Ashborn guitars from early 1800's that did it that way too. |
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| Author: | John Arnold [ Sun Dec 25, 2022 7:32 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: carving martin Valoute |
'Volute' is a misnomer when applied to the Martin dart, AKA diamond. The volute (curved) shape is better represented by that area on a Gibson banjo, as well as many other imitators. Sent from my SM-G950U1 using Tapatalk |
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| Author: | bluescreek [ Mon Dec 26, 2022 6:48 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: carving martin Valoute |
Martin at the factory calls is valoute but I agree it can be called many things Milt Hess He was one of the people that trained me when I was at Martin for training for my repair center. So that is why I call it valoute the old joint is a piece of art. The old necks also had the Ice Cream Cone heel which is a very artful execution of wood joinery . I had to repair this one as the joint loosened. Its secret is the tapered dovetail tenon you can see me steaming out. It grabbed the heel just before it locks in the neck barrel. True wood masters this was an 1847 2 1/2 17 |
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| Author: | Clay S. [ Mon Dec 26, 2022 12:11 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: carving martin Valoute |
"Velouté (pronounced "vuh-loo-TAY") is one of the five mother sauces of classical French cuisine—béchamel, espagnole, hollandaise, and tomato are the other four. This means velouté is a starting point from which a number of sauces can be made.S" Adding the accent at the end makes it a bit more saucy! For volute we have these choices: vo·lute /vəˈlo͞ot/ 1. ARCHITECTURE a spiral scroll characteristic of Ionic capitals and also used in Corinthian and composite capitals. 2. a deep-water marine mollusk with a thick spiral shell that is colorful and prized by collectors. adjective forming a spiral curve or curves. "spoked wheels with outside volute springs" I think we call it that because we can't think of anything better. I also like the term "dart" for the part that sticks above the peghead. I use "modified bridle joint" or more colloquially - "bird's beak" for the Martin joint. I like to use that joint because it allows me to use thinner 5/4 material and work the peghead separate from the neck shaft. I also think it looks cool! I have worked out a way to do most of the cuts using jigs and machinery and eliminated the need for having the hand tool skills the old Martin craftsman had. The ice cream cone heel is another cool joint - something I haven't yet attempted. The term "V" joint covers a number of different joints of varying skill levels to accomplish. The "covered V" which some of the romantic and baroque makers used was like a modified dovetail joint where the stub tenon didn't come through on the face of the peghead. Modern makers often use a V joint that does come all the way through and hide it with a peghead overlay. It is less trouble to make. Many of the old joints that did not rely completely on the strength of the glue to hold them together have been supplanted by simpler joints and one piece necks. |
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| Author: | bluescreek [ Mon Dec 26, 2022 1:23 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: carving martin Valoute |
http://vintagemartin.com/volutes.html Mike Longsworth does mention the joint on the old bridle joint as a Diamond so the terminology goes I think with your personal preference. I will change my terms to Diamond to match Mr Longworth Pg 50 Martin guitar history |
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| Author: | Alan Carruth [ Tue Dec 27, 2022 2:16 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: carving martin Volute / Diamond |
The bridle joint can be entirely made with a table saw, with the only 'fitting' necessary being to thin out the headstock to fit (assuming you start with it a bit thick; a good idea). One thing I really like about the standard V-joint is that if you hit the head the glue line breaks (assuming you used hide glue...). It's easy to clean it up, put on some more glue, and put it back together as good as new. The bridle joint will almost certainly see some wood breakage in that case. |
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| Author: | Ken Nagy [ Tue Dec 27, 2022 5:12 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: carving martin Volute / Diamond |
Alan Carruth wrote: The bridle joint can be entirely made with a table saw, with the only 'fitting' necessary being to thin out the headstock to fit (assuming you start with it a bit thick; a good idea). One thing I really like about the standard V-joint is that if you hit the head the glue line breaks (assuming you used hide glue...). It's easy to clean it up, put on some more glue, and put it back together as good as new. The bridle joint will almost certainly see some wood breakage in that case. That happened to me with my first one, the archtop. I got a tuner stuck somehow. I beat on it, and pounded on it, and then really wailed on it, and the head broke off right on the glue line. Easy fix. I think they are fairly easy to make. I know that it is easier to make one, than to fake one. The ice cream cone heel is easy to make with just a glue joint. Maybe the dovetails are faster for a production setup. They have different agendas. |
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| Author: | flemsmith [ Tue Dec 27, 2022 6:49 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: carving martin Volute / Diamond |
would certainly be thrilled to see the video since I've struggled with volutes, but really like them Thanks! Roy |
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| Author: | bluescreek [ Wed Dec 28, 2022 6:38 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: carving martin Volute / Diamond |
a glued ice cream cone heel is very weak and will fail the what it is dovetailed it a lot stronger. Martin stopped using it in the early 1900s. If you made one lets see pics . On the martin cone the cone is held by the removable dovetailed tenon the heel is dovetailed to the barrel Martin the joint was beautifully executed. I have to see if I have more pics and you will see the beauty. It was a labor extensive joint. |
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| Author: | Ken Nagy [ Wed Dec 28, 2022 5:10 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: carving martin Volute / Diamond |
I have a real one, and two fakes here. The finished guitar is a wall hanger. the belly should have been concave, like a lute. At least that's what I found in the plans for the Vihuela I bought. The bridge broke off twice; not right away. The other two will have veneer on them. One has a dovetail mount, and the other a Spanish heel. I roughed out 3 baroque necks one week, when I was seeing how much Spanish Cedar I had. The other, for the Vihuela has a modern looking Spanish heel. Go figure. It seems that a ice cream cone heel has a lot of glue area. But a stacked heel is glued in the slot on all pieces. On a bolt on that wouldn't be true. Attachment: IMG_1204.jpg
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