Official Luthiers Forum! :: View topic - Red superthin piezo under saddle pick up

I wouldn't these are uber fragile.

The Fishmans have a strip of thin copper with six crystals specific to an individual requirements string spacing. The crystals are what vibrates and if you upset the wrapper at all it changes the pressure of the wrap on some of the crystals and degrades the performance and balance of the element. You can kill one completely by trimming it too or you might get away with it but I would not do it especially if it belongs to someone else.

What are you trying to do if I knew that maybe I could be more helpful with what you really want and that is how to proceed not be stopped in your tracks?

But these are VERy fragile so be careful.

Thanks

do not cut. drill and angled hole at end of slot to take up excess length. of course this assumes bridge is wide enough

Mike OMelia wrote:

do not cut. drill and angled hole at end of slot to take up excess length. of course this assumes bridge is wide enough

Thanks, if I understand you correctly, are you suggesting they can be bent downwards to hide the excess?
Mike

mikeyb2 wrote:

Mike OMelia wrote:

do not cut. drill and angled hole at end of slot to take up excess length. of course this assumes bridge is wide enough

Thanks, if I understand you correctly, are you suggesting they can be bent downwards to hide the excess?
Mike

Mike may be thinking of the LR Baggs flexible UST (under saddles transducers). These, the Fishmans should not be bent it it may change the relationship of the two copper strips and the crystals.

Uke pick-ups are often problematic and can work very poorly in our experience. If it's an UST the downward pressure on the saddle for a UKE may not be sufficient and many not be uniformly sufficient for all strings. We see this from time to time when asked to improve the balance on these.

There is one brand of Uke that people give for Christmas presents and right after Christmas our phone is ringing with poor balance issues and there is often very little that can be done with a UST other than making sure everything moves freely (saddle).

I'm not up on what's out there for Ukes but a mic may be a better bet.

Well, if I am doing something wrong, I want to know. The slot template I use is about 1/8" shy of element length, so I have always done this with no ill effects. But when I do that angle drill at end, I rotate it a bit to enlarge the hole. I have never given this much thought and it now seems reasonable for me to lengthen my slot. No element I have ever removed from one of my installs has ever been bent. So, ignore my advice. I learned a lot here today. Thank you. (but don't cut the element).

It would be nice if Fishman mentioned this somewhere. Does anyone have a link? I learned this technique here a while ago.

Please bear in mind Hesh and Mike, that I'm talking about a soprano uke bridge, open ended 62mm long, unlike a closed pocket guitar bridge. I appreciate the advice though and will file it away in my memory, for future reference. Many thanks Mike.

mikeyb2 wrote:

Yep no tucking with an "thru style" saddles as we call them here in the states. What we do with this Mike is we have a saddle mill, the Collins saddle mill and we mill a special pocket in the bottom of the saddle slot for the UST and then it lives there. We mill it to a depth few tho shallower than the UST is so the saddle is riding on the UST and the UST is in a pocket.

It's a very neat approach and works great too but your UST has to be shorter than your saddle slot and even your bridge

for it to work.

OK, so I spent some time speaking with Gary at Fishman. When he finally understood what I was doing he said there is no issue with that. As long as one does not bend the transducer (matrix). This particular transducer is not made of 6 crystals, so string centering is not an issue (the AG series is a different story). You also do not want to cut the matrix transducer. So yes, you can bury excess length as long as the hole does not put pressure on the matrix transducer.

This is a long way from the OP's original intent, but these points were made above, so good place to address them.

Mike

Get some thin double stick tape and try them out as a temp check in various locations and see what results. K & K offers the tape install option although we never use it and it would not survive many of our clients who are performing musicians where the instruments are at times in harsh environments.

Did you see the post and video that Terry Kennedy posted I believe in another active thread using a clamp to locate and install the discs? that would a great way in a Uke too.

EDIT: Here is Terry's link. https://youtu.be/ItaMGL8Ktkc

Author:	mikeyb2 [ Tue Dec 27, 2022 12:24 pm ]
Post subject:	Red superthin piezo under saddle pick up
Attachment: redustpiezo.jpg Does anyone know whether these can be trimmed to length, like the older type with the visible segments under the black shrink wrap. I think this is a Fishman but there are numerous similar ones available at a fraction of the cost. Mike

Author:	Colin North [ Tue Dec 27, 2022 2:17 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Red superthin piezo under saddle pick up
I it's a fishman Martix, I doubt it - "Due to the nature of the manufacturing process, the Acoustic Matrix pickup cannot be cut to fit once it is made." https://www.fishman.com/FAQ/can-the-matrix-pickup-element-be-cut-to-fit-any-length-slot/#:~:text=Due%20to%20the%20nature%20of,fit%20once%20it%20is%20made.

Author:	Hesh [ Tue Dec 27, 2022 2:18 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Red superthin piezo under saddle pick up
I wouldn't these are uber fragile. The Fishmans have a strip of thin copper with six crystals specific to an individual requirements string spacing. The crystals are what vibrates and if you upset the wrapper at all it changes the pressure of the wrap on some of the crystals and degrades the performance and balance of the element. You can kill one completely by trimming it too or you might get away with it but I would not do it especially if it belongs to someone else. What are you trying to do if I knew that maybe I could be more helpful with what you really want and that is how to proceed not be stopped in your tracks? But these are VERy fragile so be careful. Thanks

Author:	Hesh [ Tue Dec 27, 2022 2:19 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Red superthin piezo under saddle pick up
Colin and I posted at the same time but it is the same message, cut at your own great risk.

Author:	mikeyb2 [ Tue Dec 27, 2022 2:45 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Red superthin piezo under saddle pick up
Colin and Hesh, thanks for you replies. I've seen it written by Fishman that it can't be cut, and that may be the case but I'm a little suspicious , after all they will sell more if nobody cut them. Having said that, I wouldn't try and cut a Fishman bearing in mind what they cost, but I was thinking more about the cheaper alternatives that can be seen for just a few dollars(£s), and wondered whether anybody else had tried. Hesh, what I'm trying to do is fit one to a ukulele, but the ones I've seen for sale are either too short(40mm) or too long (65mm) . Ideally 50mm ish would be better to fit my 42mm string spacing. Thanks Mike

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Author:	Hesh [ Wed Dec 28, 2022 2:37 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Red superthin piezo under saddle pick up
Thank Mike for the details.

Author:	Smylight [ Wed Dec 28, 2022 9:57 am ]
Post subject:	Red superthin piezo under saddle pick up
Hesh wrote: I wouldn't these are uber fragile. The Fishmans have a strip of thin copper with six crystals specific to an individual requirements string spacing. The crystals are what vibrates and if you upset the wrapper at all it changes the pressure of the wrap on some of the crystals and degrades the performance and balance of the element. You can kill one completely by trimming it too or you might get away with it but I would not do it especially if it belongs to someone else. What are you trying to do if I knew that maybe I could be more helpful with what you really want and that is how to proceed not be stopped in your tracks? But these are VERy fragile so be careful. Thanks Very fragile indeed, I'm guilty of ruining one of those Fishman Matrix that'd been living in my own J200 by simply scratching the surface while trying to get it out. Solid bone replaced it, and I'll install something else when I have some free time to work on my own guitars. It sounded so bad to my ears I was almost glad I scratched it so I'll never be tempted to use it elsewhere. Pierre Guitares Torvisse

Author:	Mike OMelia [ Thu Dec 29, 2022 12:07 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Red superthin piezo under saddle pick up
do not cut. drill and angled hole at end of slot to take up excess length. of course this assumes bridge is wide enough

Author:	mikeyb2 [ Thu Dec 29, 2022 12:33 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Red superthin piezo under saddle pick up
Mike OMelia wrote: do not cut. drill and angled hole at end of slot to take up excess length. of course this assumes bridge is wide enough Thanks, if I understand you correctly, are you suggesting they can be bent downwards to hide the excess? Mike

Author:	Hesh [ Thu Dec 29, 2022 1:11 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Red superthin piezo under saddle pick up
mikeyb2 wrote: Mike OMelia wrote: do not cut. drill and angled hole at end of slot to take up excess length. of course this assumes bridge is wide enough Thanks, if I understand you correctly, are you suggesting they can be bent downwards to hide the excess? Mike Mike may be thinking of the LR Baggs flexible UST (under saddles transducers). These, the Fishmans should not be bent it it may change the relationship of the two copper strips and the crystals. Uke pick-ups are often problematic and can work very poorly in our experience. If it's an UST the downward pressure on the saddle for a UKE may not be sufficient and many not be uniformly sufficient for all strings. We see this from time to time when asked to improve the balance on these. There is one brand of Uke that people give for Christmas presents and right after Christmas our phone is ringing with poor balance issues and there is often very little that can be done with a UST other than making sure everything moves freely (saddle). I'm not up on what's out there for Ukes but a mic may be a better bet.

Author:	mikeyb2 [ Thu Dec 29, 2022 3:48 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Red superthin piezo under saddle pick up
Hesh wrote: mikeyb2 wrote: Mike OMelia wrote: do not cut. drill and angled hole at end of slot to take up excess length. of course this assumes bridge is wide enough Thanks, if I understand you correctly, are you suggesting they can be bent downwards to hide the excess? Mike Mike may be thinking of the LR Baggs flexible UST (under saddles transducers). These, the Fishmans should not be bent it it may change the relationship of the two copper strips and the crystals. Uke pick-ups are often problematic and can work very poorly in our experience. If it's an UST the downward pressure on the saddle for a UKE may not be sufficient and many not be uniformly sufficient for all strings. We see this from time to time when asked to improve the balance on these. There is one brand of Uke that people give for Christmas presents and right after Christmas our phone is ringing with poor balance issues and there is often very little that can be done with a UST other than making sure everything moves freely (saddle). I'm not up on what's out there for Ukes but a mic may be a better bet. That would make more sense, and I do have one of the flexible braided types but it is thicker than I would like. The reason I'm looking at these red piezos is because they are thin and more suitable for a small bridge for a ukulele. I am building a Martin style 1 type soprano as a surprise gift for someone, who is likely to use it occasionally on stage so I'm not in a position to discuss it with them. I'd like to pre-install a passive UST to get them going, and if they want to upgrade it later on, then so be it. Cheers Mike

Author:	Mike OMelia [ Thu Dec 29, 2022 10:13 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Red superthin piezo under saddle pick up
Well, if I am doing something wrong, I want to know. The slot template I use is about 1/8" shy of element length, so I have always done this with no ill effects. But when I do that angle drill at end, I rotate it a bit to enlarge the hole. I have never given this much thought and it now seems reasonable for me to lengthen my slot. No element I have ever removed from one of my installs has ever been bent. So, ignore my advice. I learned a lot here today. Thank you. (but don't cut the element). It would be nice if Fishman mentioned this somewhere. Does anyone have a link? I learned this technique here a while ago.

Author:	Hesh [ Fri Dec 30, 2022 2:34 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Red superthin piezo under saddle pick up
Mike OMelia wrote: Well, if I am doing something wrong, I want to know. The slot template I use is about 1/8" shy of element length, so I have always done this with no ill effects. But when I do that angle drill at end, I rotate it a bit to enlarge the hole. I have never given this much thought and it now seems reasonable for me to lengthen my slot. No element I have ever removed from one of my installs has ever been bent. So, ignore my advice. I learned a lot here today. Thank you. (but don't cut the element). It would be nice if Fishman mentioned this somewhere. Does anyone have a link? I learned this technique here a while ago. Mike it's actually working for you so maybe it's OK to do what you have been doing and thanks for the details too. Enlarging the hole may prevent any bending being necessary and that makes it work. And that's what maters making it work. Yeah Ukes and pick-ups are often problematic especially because the cheap ones on the market have crap electronics that basically function but often not very well.

Author:	mikeyb2 [ Fri Dec 30, 2022 1:28 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Red superthin piezo under saddle pick up
Please bear in mind Hesh and Mike, that I'm talking about a soprano uke bridge, open ended 62mm long, unlike a closed pocket guitar bridge. I appreciate the advice though and will file it away in my memory, for future reference. Many thanks Mike.

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Author:	Hesh [ Sat Dec 31, 2022 2:32 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Red superthin piezo under saddle pick up
mikeyb2 wrote: Please bear in mind Hesh and Mike, that I'm talking about a soprano uke bridge, open ended 62mm long, unlike a closed pocket guitar bridge. I appreciate the advice though and will file it away in my memory, for future reference. Many thanks Mike. Yep no tucking with an "thru style" saddles as we call them here in the states. What we do with this Mike is we have a saddle mill, the Collins saddle mill and we mill a special pocket in the bottom of the saddle slot for the UST and then it lives there. We mill it to a depth few tho shallower than the UST is so the saddle is riding on the UST and the UST is in a pocket. It's a very neat approach and works great too but your UST has to be shorter than your saddle slot and even your bridge for it to work.

Author:	mikeyb2 [ Sat Dec 31, 2022 6:15 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Red superthin piezo under saddle pick up
Hesh wrote: mikeyb2 wrote: Please bear in mind Hesh and Mike, that I'm talking about a soprano uke bridge, open ended 62mm long, unlike a closed pocket guitar bridge. I appreciate the advice though and will file it away in my memory, for future reference. Many thanks Mike. Yep no tucking with an "thru style" saddles as we call them here in the states. What we do with this Mike is we have a saddle mill, the Collins saddle mill and we mill a special pocket in the bottom of the saddle slot for the UST and then it lives there. We mill it to a depth few tho shallower than the UST is so the saddle is riding on the UST and the UST is in a pocket. It's a very neat approach and works great too but your UST has to be shorter than your saddle slot and even your bridge for it to work. Thanks again Hesh for the explanation. This is exactly what I will endeavour to do, but using a Dremel(and homemade jig of some sort) to rout the pocket. Looks like I'll have to buy a 50mm piezo, but they are slightly thicker at 1.7mm, thus requiring a deeper pocket. Cheers Mike.

Author:	Mike OMelia [ Sat Dec 31, 2022 10:21 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Red superthin piezo under saddle pick up
Now that I understand better, check out K & K pickups. They have better solutions for this. U can get a UBT jack, or one that sticks to top (external) with a side mount jack (non-invasive).

Author:	Mike OMelia [ Wed Jan 04, 2023 4:44 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Red superthin piezo under saddle pick up
OK, so I spent some time speaking with Gary at Fishman. When he finally understood what I was doing he said there is no issue with that. As long as one does not bend the transducer (matrix). This particular transducer is not made of 6 crystals, so string centering is not an issue (the AG series is a different story). You also do not want to cut the matrix transducer. So yes, you can bury excess length as long as the hole does not put pressure on the matrix transducer. This is a long way from the OP's original intent, but these points were made above, so good place to address them. Mike

Author:	Hesh [ Thu Jan 05, 2023 3:15 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Red superthin piezo under saddle pick up
Mike OMelia wrote: OK, so I spent some time speaking with Gary at Fishman. When he finally understood what I was doing he said there is no issue with that. As long as one does not bend the transducer (matrix). This particular transducer is not made of 6 crystals, so string centering is not an issue (the AG series is a different story). You also do not want to cut the matrix transducer. So yes, you can bury excess length as long as the hole does not put pressure on the matrix transducer. This is a long way from the OP's original intent, but these points were made above, so good place to address them. Mike Good stuff Mike and thanks for taking the time and effort to get the scoop from Fishman, very much appreciated.

Author:	bluescreek [ Thu Jan 05, 2023 6:32 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Red superthin piezo under saddle pick up
I have used the uke K&K pick up I much rather them then under saddle piezos https://www.amazon.com/s?k=k%26k+aloha+ ... 2y4yee2e_e

Author:	Mike OMelia [ Thu Jan 05, 2023 1:20 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Red superthin piezo under saddle pick up
https://www.amazon.com/Aloha-Twin-Doubl ... 13d670b6bc and http://www.tapastring.com/vintagejack.htm This is what I will be using. Tapastring uses a standard mandoline/uke end pin sized jack. 1/8" out. They sell a 1/8" to 1/4" adaptor cable

Author:	mikeyb2 [ Sun Jan 08, 2023 7:23 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Red superthin piezo under saddle pick up
So now I'm looking into Mike and John's suggestion of a K and K type pick up. It won't be a K and K but the cheaper alternatives made from a couple of piezo discs wired to an endpin jack. Now this raises the question of where to place them. I know they would normally be glued to the bridge plate directly under the saddle, but that might be difficult as my bridge plate is rounded over(as per the Grellier plans), so I was wondering whether it would be ok to place them just in front of the bridge plate? I have used these discs before on a cgb a few years ago and they do work, it's just a matter of placement. Any ideas would be appreciated, thanks. Mike

Author:	Hesh [ Sun Jan 08, 2023 10:51 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Red superthin piezo under saddle pick up
Get some thin double stick tape and try them out as a temp check in various locations and see what results. K & K offers the tape install option although we never use it and it would not survive many of our clients who are performing musicians where the instruments are at times in harsh environments. Did you see the post and video that Terry Kennedy posted I believe in another active thread using a clamp to locate and install the discs? that would a great way in a Uke too. EDIT: Here is Terry's link. https://youtu.be/ItaMGL8Ktkc

Author:	mikeyb2 [ Sun Jan 08, 2023 12:24 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Red superthin piezo under saddle pick up
Hesh wrote: Get some thin double stick tape and try them out as a temp check in various locations and see what results. K & K offers the tape install option although we never use it and it would not survive many of our clients who are performing musicians where the instruments are at times in harsh environments. Did you see the post and video that Terry Kennedy posted I believe in another active thread using a clamp to locate and install the discs? that would a great way in a Uke too. EDIT: Here is Terry's link. https://youtu.be/ItaMGL8Ktkc Thanks Hesh, good idea and yes, I did see the video which is one of the things which swayed me towards this type of pup, I certainly can't get my hand down a soprano soundhole!! Thanks for posting the link anyway. Cheers Mike.