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Anyone wanna talk Shops?
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Author:  meddlingfool [ Thu Jan 12, 2023 3:31 pm ]
Post subject:  Anyone wanna talk Shops?
Got a new shop coming up which is an epic upgrade from my little basement shop.

1200 ft2 with 12’ ceilings and three huge picture widows about 4x8 each.

One thing I like about my small shop is that in the PNW, it’s very easy to maintain temp/RH both because it’s small, and in a basement in a heated house.

New one is an outbuilding with no heating/air conditioning beyond a wood stove.

My initial thought was to take the quarter with the big windows and wall it off into a 15x20 climate room, but I’ve been getting a lot of advice saying to make the climate room as large as possible so you can have as many of the daily use tools inside as possible, and the last few times I’ve visited the new location, the 15x20 room has seemed smaller and smaller when I consider what I’d like in it.

So I’ve been toying with the idea of just putting in a washroom and a finish room and leaving the rest as a big open space, rather than a smaller climate room and a larger untreated dirty tool area.

An advantage to this is is that I wouldn’t have to commit to the design of the shop in advance, which is somewhat appealing as I’m having a bit of failure of imagination as to how I want the whole thing to be. My current shop started with a tiny bench with no RH control at all to which I added walls, benches, areas and such bit by bit as needed starting from nothing, but knowing why I was doing what I was doing.

OTOH, walls are very handy for putting things on, creating ares of logical layout etc.

This task feels like I need to get everything exactly right the first time, and I’ll only get a chance to build it out once, and will more or less have to live with initial layout for the next 30 years.

I’m not particularly worried about dust control as I have a good 5HP system which can handle a lot, and plan to get a few more for separate machine sections. I will have a separate finish room and won’t be spraying which also helps.

My main concern is the practicality and reality of RH and temp control in a space that size. I know for sure that I have no interest in having a little RH closet type setup.

Anyway, I’d appreciate some feedback from folks who’ve gone through a similar process, what you did right, what you wished you’d have done differently. I know there’s lots of folks on this forum who’ve dealt with this and I’d love some advice…what would you do?

TIA
Author:  Dave m2 [ Thu Jan 12, 2023 6:54 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Anyone wanna talk Shops?
Ed you have given us so much advice, I wish you joy of the new space.

The most important thing, and I probably don’t need to say, this is insulation.

However someone on this forum - sorry can’t remember who- suggested panels on wheels to separate the areas of the shop rather than walls. This enables reconfiguration of the building without reconstructing it. It gives you the vertical surfaces to hang tools on which is pretty important but you can change them out depending on what the task at hand is.

I don’t have that particular luxury because my space is divided in three by walls but that’s OK it means I can separate the various functions and do some dust control.

Getting an efficient working space is not at all an easy exercise. Charles Fox did a series of articles in the GAL recently which could be useful

Best Dave
Author:  jfmckenna [ Thu Jan 12, 2023 8:27 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Anyone wanna talk Shops?
It seems to me like a climate controlled space big enough to assemble guitars and store finished ones as well as have clients come in and play instruments is ideal. And if you do repairs then you would want a dedicated work space for that. For me my work bench is both build and repair but if you have the space for two purposes that is nice.

Then in the non climate controlled space you have all your saw dust making machines, sanding stations, and so on. So yeah, if I had space like taht the climate controlled area would probably be the bigger space.

My entire shop is roughly 20x25 so I can see why you think the 15x20 is getting smaller. But I also have an adjacent non controlled garage like space with my resaw and planer and other power tools. In the winter I just run out there real quick, get it done, then come back to the nice warm and cozy controlled shop.

With 12 ft ceilings you can build loft space for wood storage and that's a wonderful thing to have.
Author:  Ken Lewis [ Thu Jan 12, 2023 9:15 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Anyone wanna talk Shops?
Your 1200 sq.ft. space at 12 ft. height is equivalent to 1800 sq.ft. at 8 ft height and its the cubic space
that has to be considered for climate control. That's a large space. You might consider a heat pump or
mini-splits as a solution. This would take care of heating/cooling as well as dehumidification. My suggestion
would be to seek out someone who installs these and get their advice.
Author:  Darrel Friesen [ Thu Jan 12, 2023 10:00 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Anyone wanna talk Shops?
Deleted.
Author:  meddlingfool [ Thu Jan 12, 2023 10:16 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Anyone wanna talk Shops?
Yeah for sure about the insulation. That’ll be part of the process for sure as the whole thing needs to be stripped to the cladding and redone. Right now it’s particle board and rat crap falling through the ceiling…
Author:  Mike OMelia [ Fri Jan 13, 2023 6:36 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Anyone wanna talk Shops?
Climate control affects tools as well. When I built my shop, I always intended for it to be totally climate controlled. Insulated the walls, foamed the attic ceiling joists. It just took longer to get the heat pump installed than I anticipated. I now am in the process of cleaning up the crud that accumulated on the big tools. A mini-split unit 1/2 - 3/4 ton or so is probably enough for 1200 sqft. Research it.
Author:  doncaparker [ Fri Jan 13, 2023 7:18 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Anyone wanna talk Shops?
On the question of climate controlling the whole space versus just a small part of it: I recommend thinking and talking about it in terms of the money you want to spend and the working environment you are willing to pay for, instead of things like possibility or practicality. There is no question you can climate control the whole space, if you want to; it just takes insulation and the right HVAC equipment, correctly installed. But it does cost more money to do that, both in upfront costs and monthly energy bills. Personally, I think it is worth the cost, because I think splitting the space up is not ideal for how I work. But someone else might balk at spending that money and prefer to live with the downsides of splitting the space up.

Another suggestion, from my own experience: you may need to be politely insistent, repetitive, and bordering on pushy, to get some HVAC professionals to take you seriously on your humidity control needs. I had to make my guy come back to the house a few times before he relented and wired my humidifier for 220v, which was necessary for maximum output. In his head, that’s too much humidity in the winter, but none of his other customers have precision hygrometers that need to be in the 40% ballpark in the winter. You might face similar issues; just watch out for contractors failing to take your peculiar needs seriously.
Author:  bluescreek [ Fri Jan 13, 2023 8:00 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Anyone wanna talk Shops?
This brings back a lot of memories. I moved from a 20 by 24 to a 24 by 48 2 floor shop. Since then I added another building for CNC and finish so here is what I learned.
I built the shop in 2004 and used 2 by 6 walls. The roof is a barn roof style. I have 22 inches of fiberglass in the ceiling with 2 in rigid foam under that and dry wall on that.
Most heat loss is out the roof. I do have vapor barrier fiberglass ( paper faced ). The insulation has paid off big time as I can ac my shop with 3 window units a total of 18000 BTU.

One thing I wish I had done was insulate the floor.

I did a few redos on the floor plan and that is going to be an individual thing. If you plan on spraying figure that space now. I find a 5 by 7 is just fine. I can do 8 guitars at a time. I use a down draft table and while I do evacuate through a window I can see floor venting an option.
NOTE be sure to rig a VOC vent along the floor I use a 4 in duct fan pulling floor air through 3/4 in holes. this does a good job to keep vov low.

RH and HVAC
I do have an oil furnace in my shop but I am thinking of a split system heat pump. I found that floor humidifier and dehumidifiers were the most economical choice. WIth my hot air furnace I may be able to set up a steal humidifier. originally I had an on line unit and it block up from the dust is a month.
I get about 3 years out of a unit even using a dust filter on the ceiling. I have a lasko recirculating humidifier 9 gallon fill it once a day and can maintain 42% the dehumidifiers run in the summer. The AC helps but I use a frigidaire 90 pint that also helps maintain under 50% in summer.

Do all you can to seal drafts and air infiltration. I have a 1/2 bath in the shop , a small fridge , and use rolling tool cabinets. Sears craftsman cabinets are crap I made my own but you will find what helps you. AVOID FLAT SURFACES they become catch alls. There is no
perfect formula and you will find your space design. ALso PLAN FOR OUTLETS. I did a lot of drop downs. I hate tripping on cords.
Author:  jfmckenna [ Fri Jan 13, 2023 9:22 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Anyone wanna talk Shops?
+1 on the mini splits and I can tell you from experience that the DIY mini-split systems are well worth it. The first one I installed was a Freidrich and it lasted 8 years. I just replaced it with a Mr. Cool system. These systems cost less then $2,000 and the local heating store quoted me $6-8000 to install it. So in 8 years it so far has cost me roughly $4 grand and this new one I'm sure will last another 8 years. Incredible ROI on those if you ask me and they are super easy to install. These are the mini-split kits that come with precharged lines so you don't need any HVAC professionals to install them.

The Freidrich probably would have lasted even longer if I had taken better care of it. But again even if they only last 5 years it's still a huge savings and they work really well.

Insulation as mentioned is crucial. I'd say get the best you can afford. For me it was spray foam the ceiling and the sub floor and pink bats in the walls. My shop is about 25x20 or so with a second floor loft and when it's 20deg outside I can heat the whole thing with one of those oil room heaters if I really had too, it's that well insulated.

Here's a pic of the new unit I installed. Took the better part of a full day. The casing is jsut pvc gutters cut in half to enclose the piping.

Image
Author:  Doc [ Fri Jan 13, 2023 5:14 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Anyone wanna talk Shops?
Some great advice being given. I recently turned half of my attic into my shop. I did take my time planning the layout for work stations, tool storage, dust collection, etc. Perhaps some of my work may be of benefit to you. I started with pulling the floors and reinforcing the bracing to make it solid, followed by insulating heavily (found soundproofing quality). When the planks were back in place I covered them with 4x8 sheets of 1/4" plywood to make the surface smooth. This allowed everything to be on wheels so I can reconfigure whenever I choose.

For the electrical I had a separate box run up to the area with outlets everywhere, many at switch level (bending over to plug/unplug gets less fun as I age). All outlets were wired for 20 amp with several dedicated if I ever chose to switch them to 220v. In the ceiling I have multiple LED can lights and a few outlets. Those drop down reels for plugging in get used more than I ever thought.

Before the wallboard went up I again insulated with the most R-value I could fit in. One corner was framed like a closet and I use that for wood storage. Put a bifold door on it (slatted). Chose to put a Mitsubishi mini-split on the wall near the assembly area and away from the sawdust producing machines. It has a couple filters on the top of it that require frequent cleaning (or it will result in premature failure of the unit I was told). Heats and cools the area quickly using a remote.

I do have a small window in a dormer which helps with mental health. Found out once that working in a basement with none I was claustrophobic--first and only time. Was hard to get anything done when I had to step outside every few minutes.

Congrats on the new space!
Author:  meddlingfool [ Fri Jan 13, 2023 9:24 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Anyone wanna talk Shops?
I will say that when I unboarded a window after 18 years in the shop, it was a revelation! Sometimes in the summer it can even be opened…:)
Author:  jfmckenna [ Fri Jan 13, 2023 9:25 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Anyone wanna talk Shops?
Doc wrote:
It has a couple filters on the top of it that require frequent cleaning (or it will result in premature failure of the unit I was told).


Yup. That's what I was saying in my last post, that mine probably could have lasted longer with better care. I now have a schedule and reminder to clean the filters every month. I don't know that it is necessary for extra ones but not cleaning them for a year or more in a wood shop is a really dumb idea.
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