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What would Torres do?
http://w-ww.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10101&t=55479		 Page 1 of 1
Author:  Clay S. [ Thu Jan 26, 2023 11:07 pm ]
Post subject:  What would Torres do?
The great Spanish guitar maker Antonio de Torres Jurado often made multipiece soundboards. He selected wood he felt had the best qualities rather than finding wood wide enough to book match for a two piece top. How many of us would be willing to do the same?
Here are the specifications and a price list from a tonewood supplier who mostly deals in Engelmann spruce:
MASTER (5A)
Quartersawn within two degrees.
No run out.
Minimum of 20 annual rings/inch.
No color or compression.
Even grain spacing across the entire piece.
Cosmetically perfect.
Very stiff.
Absolutely no defects allowed. These soundboards are perfect.
4A
Quartersawn within five degrees.
No run out
Minimum of 16 annual rings/inch.
Very faint color allowed, no compression
Even grain spacing across entire piece.
Cosmetically pleasing, very close to Master grade.
Very stiff.
No defects allowed.
3A
Quartersawn within 8 degrees.
Very limited run out.
Minimum of 12 annual rings/inch.
Faint color banding allowed, very small amounts of compression wood allowed.
Grain spacing may be slightly less consistent than allowed in a 4A piece.
Cosmetically pleasing, close to 4A.
Stiff.
Small defects allowed outside of the working area.
2A
Quartersawn within 12 degrees.
Limited run out allowed.
Minimum of 8 annual rings/inch.
Medium color allowed, medium compression allowed.
Grain spacing can be less even than is allowed in a 3A piece.
Cosmetically sound.
Not as stiff as 3A but a very usable soundboard.
Small defects allowed outside of the working area.
A GRADE
A Grade soundboards are allowed more defects than the above grades will. These boards are sound and very usable but are less cosmetically pleasing than the higher grades. Most often used as a “paint grade” where visual defects will not be seen.

ENGLEMANN SPRUCE TONEWOOD PRICE SHEET
8 3⁄4” WIDE
Master $85/set
4A $65/set
3A $45/set
2A $20/set
8” WIDE
Master $70/set
4A $55/set
3A $35/set
2A $15/set
7 1/2” WIDE
Master $55/set
4A $35/set
3A $25/set
2A $9/set
6” WIDE
Master $15/set
4A $12/set
3A $10/set

All soundboard sets are 22” long and 3/16” thick.

A little analysis shows you that 2 17 1/2 inch wide - 2 piece - "Mastergrade" tops will cost $170, but that 2 - 4 piece - Mastergrade tops can be created from 3 - 6 inch wide sets for the princely sum of $45. Assuming that the grading is as stated, who would buy a four piece Mastergrade top for slightly more than the price of a two piece "2A" grade top of the same dimensions?
By this same reasoning, 4 - 6 inch wide sets could yield 3 - 4 piece 15 1/2 inch wide Mastergrade tops for about $20 apiece.
Again, who might consider this? pizza
Author:  Clay S. [ Thu Jan 26, 2023 11:31 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: What would Torres do?
Oh! - and for a Torres or Hauser you might be able to get the "wings" for the lower bout out of the waist area off cut. I have done this for a Martin "size one" copy from a 6 inch wide set. Mastergrade top for $15 dollars anyone? [:Y:]
Author:  jfmckenna [ Fri Jan 27, 2023 8:42 am ]
Post subject:  Re: What would Torres do?
Romanillos did it this way too but he selected the wood on it's tonal properties not just for color and grain count. In his opinion it was a better way to control the top across the whole of it. So in a way it was a master of master grade tops ;)

The problem is people. Jose was able to sell $20k guitars doing it but I'm not sure us mere mortals could. I like your way of thinking though.
Author:  TRein [ Fri Jan 27, 2023 8:45 am ]
Post subject:  Re: What would Torres do?
It's merely a point of conjecture but it seems likely if Torres had the ability to buy 2-piece tops that matched his specs for quality he would do so. He may have pieced together soundboards for some of his utility grade guitars but he also made some high end guitars. We are lucky to have sawyers who know how to process logs for musical instruments. It's unlikely buyers of $5K+ guitars would accept multi-piece soundboards if this feature were clearly visible. For prototypes etc multi-piece tops are a winner.
Author:  ballbanjos [ Fri Jan 27, 2023 8:45 am ]
Post subject:  Re: What would Torres do?
My college roommate had a wartime D18 with an original 4 piece top (and the ebony neck reinforcement they used during the war years). Best sounding D18 I ever played.

Dave
Author:  Pat Foster [ Fri Jan 27, 2023 10:50 am ]
Post subject:  Re: What would Torres do?
TRein wrote:
It's merely a point of conjecture but it seems likely if Torres had the ability to buy 2-piece tops that matched his specs for quality he would do so. He may have pieced together soundboards for some of his utility grade guitars but he also made some high end guitars. We are lucky to have sawyers who know how to process logs for musical instruments. It's unlikely buyers of $5K+ guitars would accept multi-piece soundboards if this feature were clearly visible. For prototypes etc multi-piece tops are a winner.


The classical players I know wouldn't care, as long as it didn't stand out. They barely look at a guitar; they just play them. It's one of the things I like about the classical market. Dealers, now that's a different story.
Author:  Clay S. [ Fri Jan 27, 2023 11:07 am ]
Post subject:  Re: What would Torres do?
Even before my "dotage" there were some tops that were joined so well that it was hard to find the center seam. I would slightly off set the halves so I could see it easily. Some of the old guitars I've had, had four piece tops and backs that were matched so well that they were only discerned after close inspection.
If the "Mastergrade" tops met all the criteria the seller listed - vertical grain, no runout, no "color", tight and even grain spacing, and very stiff - both cosmetically and structurally perfect - then the extra work of the two extra seams might be worth it.
One thing I have noticed - tops with tight straight even grain do make it more difficult to find the seam.
If I were a younger man and wanted to add more inventory and had the time to let the wood age properly I think I would stock up on some of these tops. When the wood well runs dry of premium old growth, four piece tops may become more accepted. Nobody sniffs their nose at 4 piece Madagascar backs, and good quality, well aged soundboard material is certainly more important to making a great sounding instrument.
Author:  Ken Nagy [ Fri Jan 27, 2023 2:21 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: What would Torres do?
Most, or much or violin family tone wood (tops) are split wedges. Cello wood could be sawn into guitar tops; but I don't know how it would work out price wise. Cello wood isn't exactly cheap.

Do any suppliers say that their wood is split?
Author:  Clay S. [ Fri Jan 27, 2023 3:28 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: What would Torres do?
Hi Ken,
Some luthier suppliers do saw from split billets. In some cases they will saw the tree trunk into billet lengths where it fell, and then split out billets to make them manageable to carry them to the vehicle. More human labor intensive, but less equipment required, and less disturbance of the forest. This does allow the odd blowdown to be harvested without having a full scale logging operation.
Author:  oval soundhole [ Wed Feb 01, 2023 2:42 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: What would Torres do?
Torres frequently used 3 piece soundboards for the simple reason that quality spruce large enough for guitars was hard to come by and expensive in 19th century Sevilla and doubly so in Almeria once he moved back in the 1870's. An interesting aspect of Torres' multi-piece tops (which appear on his simplest and most expensive instruments equally) is that he appears to have used the stiffest piece of spruce in the center of the top under the bridge while the two outer pieces tend to be less stiff and sometimes off quarter. The Italian maker Andrea Tacchi noticed this phenomenon after handling a few Torres guitars and created his "coclea thucea" model to expand on the idea. He uses alpine spruce under the bridge and cedar on the outer sections with great results

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yetgnQ9G6tA
Author:  oval soundhole [ Wed Feb 01, 2023 2:51 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: What would Torres do?
TRein wrote:
It's unlikely buyers of $5K+ guitars would accept multi-piece soundboards if this feature were clearly visible. For prototypes etc multi-piece tops are a winner.


I think that depends, the steel string market tends to be more conservative about guitar construction while classical players have easily embraced double tops, lattice bracing, and many other modern features. Andrea Tacchi has a decades long waiting list for his very bold (and very expensive) 3 piece topped guitars

Image
Author:  Clay S. [ Wed Feb 01, 2023 7:52 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: What would Torres do?
oval soundhole wrote:
TRein wrote:
It's unlikely buyers of $5K+ guitars would accept multi-piece soundboards if this feature were clearly visible. For prototypes etc multi-piece tops are a winner.


I think that depends, the steel string market tends to be more conservative about guitar construction while classical players have easily embraced double tops, lattice bracing, and many other modern features. Andrea Tacchi has a decades long waiting list for his very bold (and very expensive) 3 piece topped guitars

Image


That looks like something Buck Owens would play! Did he get that idea from Harmony? laughing6-hehe
https://www.retrofret.com/product.asp?P ... rmony-1970
Hi Brian,
I also read that Torres selected narrower pieces of high quality wood, rather than use wider pieces that may not be consistently good. Wood with vertical grain and little runout tends to be stiffer, so I join those edges with the least runout to put that wood in the center of the top.
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