Official Luthiers Forum! :: View topic - Learning Repair Work Productively

Okay, I'm going to differ with Hesh a bit. Cheap stuff (that I bought) is how I learned my skills. I didn't dare to learn on any Gibson, Fender, Guild, Martin, etc. I gathered that much before I even tried.

So I worked on junk, and got my skills together. Making a nut, doing a fret level, or even making a simple setup is a learning curve we all need to do. After all, the cheap stuff deserves to play well, and often can made to do so.

Keep in mind, cheap is not the same as junk - you'll learn the difference soon enough. My point is, I had the basics down and some advanced skills settled in on cheap stuff before I ever touched my first Gibson - and I gave it the respect it required. It was a couple years in by then, and I was pretty nervous. Thank goodness it worked out well.

That said, the best learning experiences I had working on guitars was doing work for clients who really knew their stuff. Masterful players who knew what they wanted from my work, and held me to a high standard. When you're a noob, you don't know who is a cut above. You find out later, but eventually it will become obvious. Even at 45 plus years at the bench, I am still learning. "Splitting hairs" as my mother would say.

That's all.

Author:	Hesh [ Sat Feb 04, 2023 1:23 am ]
Post subject:	Learning Repair Work Productively
So you've heard me push back on the folks wanting to learn or gain knowledge attempting to repair certain unserviceable instruments such as Ov*tion guitars or beaters with plywood tops, or, or, or. Problem is the knowledge learned working on some of these does NOT translate to any repair work that you are likely to ever do again or for billable hours. And if you read what I post you also know that I try to offer a way forward and not just be a naysaying putz. In the past I speak of my first, my first neck reset... and how it was a Harmony Sovereign. The old Sovereigns are constructed similar to a Martin making them excellent to learn on. Dovetail neck joint, solid wood construction, bridges to be reglued, fret work just like on a Martin. Saw this this morning and thought of my friends here on the OLF and what a great learning instrument this would be for repair. A Gibson J-50 from the 70's that needs a neck reset, bridge reglue, we always do fret work when we reset and the binding needs to be replaced or repaired. All this fun for 7 - 8 bills who could ask for anything more. And when you have it done you will have a wonderful old Gibson instrument that is very desirable and would be worth $2,000 to $3,000 but don't quote on on prices I fix em I don't sell em.... You also will have learned how to do the same operations on a Martin if you wish. Congratulations! So who would not love to have a vintage J-50 and the pride that you brought her back to life? https://www.elderly.com/products/gibson-j-50-deluxe-c-1974?variant=41985365704895 PS: Elderly's descriptions are the best in the business and I personally have bought some pretty expensive, vintage instruments from them sight unseen and was never disappointed. PSS: This Gibson is not mine and I know nothing about it I simply saw it this morning, read how even Elderly thinks it's an excellent project guitar and I thought of you fine folks. I am not affiliated with Elderly in any way beyond from time to time I send them a lot of money...

Author:	bluescreek [ Sat Feb 04, 2023 6:23 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Learning Repair Work Productively
great guitar to learn on. these are great guitars

Author:	Dan Miller [ Sat Feb 04, 2023 8:21 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Learning Repair Work Productively
I'm in learning mode, so I bought it. Thanks for the pointer!

Author:	bcombs510 [ Sat Feb 04, 2023 8:28 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Learning Repair Work Productively
Nice! Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

Author:	Hesh [ Sat Feb 04, 2023 8:36 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Learning Repair Work Productively
Dan Miller wrote: I'm in learning mode, so I bought it. Thanks for the pointer! Very cool Dan congratulations. I was considering buying it too since a couple days of work would make it an excellent player for the next 50 - 100 years or so. If you have any questions or need any advice feel very free to PM my friend.

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Author:	guitarjtb [ Sat Feb 04, 2023 8:56 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Learning Repair Work Productively
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uhDkCGjyDM4 The guitar solo, starting at 1:15, is a re-built, mid 1960's, Harmony Sovereign H1260. It is ironic that you post about productivity. Just yesterday, a friend was asking me about my progress on a particular guitar. I told him that since I have retired from my day job, I have trained myself to be extremely inefficient. My new motto is "That can certainly wait until tomorrow". Scrabble is the most stressful thing I do.

Author:	Hesh [ Sat Feb 04, 2023 9:13 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Learning Repair Work Productively
guitarjtb wrote: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uhDkCGjyDM4 The guitar solo, starting at 1:15, is a re-built, mid 1960's, Harmony Sovereign H1260. Very cool and it sounds fantastic too. They were great guitars for sure.

Author:	Barry Daniels [ Sat Feb 04, 2023 10:07 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Learning Repair Work Productively
Hate to be a Debbie Downer, but I think that guitar is a bit too nice and vintagey to be learning on. A careful beginner might pull off a decent neck reset and refret, but a binding replacement takes experience to prevent messing up the adjacent finished surfaces. I have been working on my binding replacement skills for many years and still have issues with doing an "invisible" job. They aren't making any more 70's Gibsons.

Author:	Clay S. [ Sat Feb 04, 2023 10:57 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Learning Repair Work Productively
Barry Daniels wrote: Hate to be a Debbie Downer, but I think that guitar is a bit too nice and vintagey to be learning on. A careful beginner might pull off a decent neck reset and refret, but a binding replacement takes experience to prevent messing up the adjacent finished surfaces. I have been working on my binding replacement skills for many years and still have issues with doing an "invisible" job. They aren't making any more 70's Gibsons. The problem with many old instruments is that when you add up the cost of all the repairs they need and you measure it against the more lucrative work a professional shop could do in that same amount of time + the time required to market and sell the repaired guitar, a professional shop won't take on such a project. It is a time and money sink. In the 70's I (regrettably) learned repair on some pretty nice "vintage" instruments. Back then you could find a Gibson "O" artist model for $150 and a beat up Stella 12 string for about the same money. They were old, beat guitars with bad finishes and worn out tuners, often needing more work than the pros wanted to take on. With a new set of Grover's and a shiny new finish and some other less than perfect work they became playable instruments I could pass along to people who just wanted an axe to grind out a few tunes on. If I had to do it for the money I would have been better off sitting on my hands. Maybe I don't have a great appreciation for the Gibson's built in the 70's - I'm sure they made a few good ones, I just never met one that I liked.

Author:	Barry Daniels [ Sat Feb 04, 2023 11:51 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Learning Repair Work Productively
I don't know why we keep talking about profitability. The pros on this forum can make up their own minds about whether to take on a job or not. I love old Gibsons. Send them all to me and I'll give them the attention they deserve. ;-)

Author:	Woodie G [ Sun Feb 05, 2023 8:03 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Learning Repair Work Productively
I believe the standard production 1970-1980 Gibsons and Martins are pretty ideal projects for those learning to repair, as value is closely tied to condition and the intrinsic value of any Martin or Gibson, rather than collectability or rarity. There is a plentiful supply of these guitars that need neck resets, refrets, bridge reglue, and binding repair such that buying one without that already done has negative or near-negative return on investment, making them relatively inexpensive to acquire where condition is less than 'fully restored.' Martins are somewhat more straightforward, with Gibsons presenting some additional challenges. I have a 1972 D-35 that needs a new top, neck reset, refret, and significant brace repairs... one of the guys sold it to me for $300. Something like that is a bit closer to a graduation project, but there are thousands of these guitars that can be had for fairly reasonable prices that need the usual trifecta of core skills (neck reset, refret, and at least a bridge reglue and possible replacement with some bridge plate attention). D12-20's seem to be showing up in unreasonable numbers and bargain basement prices in my area lately, but I see plenty of variety across both marques for the post-'Summer of Love' through Billy Beer era. On the lack of profit associated with learning the craft... not really an applicable concept in this situation. Few universities operate on the basis of paying students for as-yet-to-be developed skills or still-to-be-gained knowledge, and likewise, few repair students should expect to be paid in full or even part for their labor. The difference between acquisition and sale price of an instrument to be practiced upon plus 'cost' of labor and materials should more properly be thought of as tuition, with any increase in sales price for the instrument a fortunate and somewhat unexpected discount received from the College of Hard Knocks' School of Luthiery.

Author:	Hesh [ Sun Feb 05, 2023 9:02 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Learning Repair Work Productively
J-50s from this era are very common in our neck of the woods where they were made. This is not a rare, valuable instrument and it's not much of anything until someone makes it nice again. Great project with the promise of the dividend of having a very desirable instrument for the rest of one's days. Regarding profit it was never a consideration of mine here, this is not billable hours or someone asking us to take it on. It's a project guitar and the good folks at Elderly including some of the finest luthiers in the world in my opinion and experience who are also friends of Dave and I also pegged it and said so as a project guitar..... Thanks Woodie for your comments that was helpful. Congrats again Dan on a great score.

Author:	Chris Pile [ Sun Feb 05, 2023 9:32 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Learning Repair Work Productively
Quote: Back then you could find a Gibson "O" artist model for $150..... Oh, that those days would return. I would love a Gibson "O" model to play. I think they look so cool.

Author:	Barry Daniels [ Sun Feb 05, 2023 9:42 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Learning Repair Work Productively
Must be a regional thing. These kinds of guitars are not common in south Texas.

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Author:	Chris Pile [ Sun Feb 05, 2023 9:43 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Learning Repair Work Productively
Okay, I'm going to differ with Hesh a bit. Cheap stuff (that I bought) is how I learned my skills. I didn't dare to learn on any Gibson, Fender, Guild, Martin, etc. I gathered that much before I even tried. So I worked on junk, and got my skills together. Making a nut, doing a fret level, or even making a simple setup is a learning curve we all need to do. After all, the cheap stuff deserves to play well, and often can made to do so. Keep in mind, cheap is not the same as junk - you'll learn the difference soon enough. My point is, I had the basics down and some advanced skills settled in on cheap stuff before I ever touched my first Gibson - and I gave it the respect it required. It was a couple years in by then, and I was pretty nervous. Thank goodness it worked out well. That said, the best learning experiences I had working on guitars was doing work for clients who really knew their stuff. Masterful players who knew what they wanted from my work, and held me to a high standard. When you're a noob, you don't know who is a cut above. You find out later, but eventually it will become obvious. Even at 45 plus years at the bench, I am still learning. "Splitting hairs" as my mother would say. That's all.

Author:	Barry Daniels [ Sun Feb 05, 2023 10:16 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Learning Repair Work Productively
Very similar experience here, Chris.

Author:	RusRob [ Sun Feb 05, 2023 6:36 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Learning Repair Work Productively
Pretty much the same with me too, except I started out literally working on junk... Cheers, Bob

Author:	Clay S. [ Sun Feb 05, 2023 7:19 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Learning Repair Work Productively
Hi Chris, I agree the Gibson "O" style guitars look cool! But it had a thick baseball bat like neck (without a truss rod, but stable), and a sound that was kind of "meh". Hi Barry and Chris, If someone is willing to pay $750 for a project guitar I would hope they had a modicum of repair experience to have a fair chance of completing the repair in a reasonable fashion. Some people do have more money than sense, but in the lutherie trade this is not generally the case (some of us lack both ). The guitar in question was not extremely valuable, but certainly deserves to be well treated. Although not a Gibson fanboy, I am not a Gibson hater, and actually have a couple stuffed in a closet somewhere in need to repair - an old LG3/4 size with a broken truss rod and needing a neck reset, and and a non-descript archtop which I have been putting off for years. So many instruments, so little time!

Author:	Hesh [ Mon Feb 06, 2023 1:23 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Learning Repair Work Productively
Barry Daniels wrote: Must be a regional thing. These kinds of guitars are not common in south Texas. When you get into 60's and older yes they are uncommon here too but the 70's and up are not coveted, Gibson made more of them and so far they have not gained a big following. As Woodie said they also are the right age that who has or buys one (70's - 80's) has to do what Dave and I refer to between ourselves as "the whole nine yards" meaning around $1,200 worth of work and often more. Neck reset (a bit harder on a Gibson because of the finishing after neck set but still doable)(not as bad as a Guild with the tiny heel that breaks if you look at it wrong), fret dress or refret, bridge reglue or replacement, binding repair and often some loose braces and/or cracks. Again I'm not a Gibson acoustic collector but I suspect some of the lower prices on these of this era is to counter all the work that has to be done. It certainly is in this case.

Author:	Hesh [ Mon Feb 06, 2023 1:27 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Learning Repair Work Productively
Chris Pile wrote: Okay, I'm going to differ with Hesh a bit. Cheap stuff (that I bought) is how I learned my skills. I didn't dare to learn on any Gibson, Fender, Guild, Martin, etc. I gathered that much before I even tried. So I worked on junk, and got my skills together. Making a nut, doing a fret level, or even making a simple setup is a learning curve we all need to do. After all, the cheap stuff deserves to play well, and often can made to do so. Keep in mind, cheap is not the same as junk - you'll learn the difference soon enough. My point is, I had the basics down and some advanced skills settled in on cheap stuff before I ever touched my first Gibson - and I gave it the respect it required. It was a couple years in by then, and I was pretty nervous. Thank goodness it worked out well. That said, the best learning experiences I had working on guitars was doing work for clients who really knew their stuff. Masterful players who knew what they wanted from my work, and held me to a high standard. When you're a noob, you don't know who is a cut above. You find out later, but eventually it will become obvious. Even at 45 plus years at the bench, I am still learning. "Splitting hairs" as my mother would say. That's all. I'm still learning too and some of the better players make us learn more as you said. They push us, figuratively speaking to milk things out of an instrument that I often think is not possible and then it turns out to be possible. The jazz player that wants action of 2.5/64"th and 3/64"th.... that he and he alone can play. I bet there is some of this in many professions. My hernia doc implied that I may be a learning experience for her, I got nervous...