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| Controversial topic http://w-ww.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10101&t=55813 |
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| Author: | banjopicks [ Thu Aug 03, 2023 9:25 am ] |
| Post subject: | Controversial topic |
And GO! |
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| Author: | doncaparker [ Thu Aug 03, 2023 9:32 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Controversial topic |
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| Author: | Chris Pile [ Thu Aug 03, 2023 9:53 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Controversial topic |
Boogers. |
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| Author: | banjopicks [ Thu Aug 03, 2023 9:59 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Controversial topic |
Hide glue tone? I'm currently using PVA for this guitar. I put the Rival pot away. I don't have the time to mess with it. That will change in Decembers retirement. I'm looking forward to making guitars using both glues and see if I can hear any difference. I doubt I will. Also, bolt on necks are going to be my preference, at least for a few guitars. |
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| Author: | banjopicks [ Thu Aug 03, 2023 10:00 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Controversial topic |
Chris Pile wrote: Boogers. Where do they go? Do you eat them? |
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| Author: | Clay S. [ Thu Aug 03, 2023 10:44 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Controversial topic |
One controversial aspect of hide glue and glue application in general is "glue squeeze out" - do you remove it, rather than leave it and have it possibly act like a fillet weld on the side of the brace? Is it better to have an "hermetically" clean soundboard or do glue boogers improve the sound (essentially the "eat or leave" conundrum).   I use hide glue where I think it's invisibility (joining plates) and creep resistance (bridges, braces) is superior to other glues, not so much for sound improvement. |
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| Author: | Chris Pile [ Thu Aug 03, 2023 10:51 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Controversial topic |
Quote: Where do they go? Chinese Biolab near a wet market. |
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| Author: | rbuddy [ Thu Aug 03, 2023 11:09 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Controversial topic |
How's that glue effect tone? Staying within the realm of glues commonly used in instrument work, I don't give a thought to how glue effects tone, and only pay attention to ability to hold parts together or perform and last a long time. Can't remember where I ran across Tim McKnight's study recently, if it was posted here, thanks for the post. But here is a link -- https://mcknightguitars.com/hot-hide-glue-fact-or-fiction/ To be more conclusive I think they needed some duplicates to demo repeatability, but none the less, it was interesting. For me it did a pretty good job of reinforcing the idea not to worry about it. I still won't glue down a bridge with rubber cement. |
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| Author: | doncaparker [ Thu Aug 03, 2023 12:02 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Controversial topic |
I appreciate the significant virtues of hide glue for holding musical instruments together, without regard to whether it makes those instruments sound better. Moreover, the debate over hide glue's impact on tone is defined by two positions: either hide glue makes instruments sound better than other glues, or it doesn't. No one claims that other glues sound better. Given that I prefer hide glue for reasons that have nothing to do with tone, and it might (or might not) improve the sound of the instrument, I feel good about my choice to use it for all joints that hold my instruments together. I think jumping to the question of whether hide glue makes instruments sound better runs the risk of not paying enough attention to all the other good reasons to use it. |
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| Author: | banjopicks [ Thu Aug 03, 2023 12:26 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Controversial topic |
rbuddy wrote: How's that glue effect tone? Staying within the realm of glues commonly used in instrument work, I don't give a thought to how glue effects tone, and only pay attention to ability to hold parts together or perform and last a long time. Can't remember where I ran across Tim McKnight's study recently, if it was posted here, thanks for the post. But here is a link -- https://mcknightguitars.com/hot-hide-glue-fact-or-fiction/ To be more conclusive I think they needed some duplicates to demo repeatability, but none the less, it was interesting. For me it did a pretty good job of reinforcing the idea not to worry about it. I still won't glue down a bridge with rubber cement. Well now I need some LMI white glue. |
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| Author: | banjopicks [ Thu Aug 03, 2023 1:16 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Controversial topic |
Speaking of hide glue, how about methods for attaching top and backs using it. Sounds kind of stressful to try and get everything in place and clamped. Even just the time it takes to put the glue all the way around the body. I'll share a method I used once and should again because that guitar is still going strong many years later. I remember I applied glue to both surfaces and let it cool. Then I put it together slowly adding clamps. When I was happy with the positioning, I started heating the joint with a heat gun. I could see the hide start oozing out and I'd move a little further around the guitar. I learned that from an article about building violins. Do any of you do it like that? |
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| Author: | doncaparker [ Thu Aug 03, 2023 1:31 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Controversial topic |
Hutch-- That's a valid way to do it. I don't do it that way. I add a small amount of urea to the glue to slow down the gelling of the glue just a little, and I heat the parts with a heat gun before I put the glue on. It works great for tops and backs in a go-bar deck. I use urea that amounts to 5-7% of the weight of the dry glue I used to make the batch of glue. An old American Lutherie article by Frank Ford and Don McRostie said that modest amounts of urea have no adverse effect on the strength of the glue. Now, talk about controversial: There are people who will get pretty animated about this particular sub-topic. But as I said, some people who are smarter and way more experienced than I am say it is fine, and my experience so far tells me it is fine. |
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| Author: | banjopicks [ Thu Aug 03, 2023 1:38 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Controversial topic |
I never tried the urea trick. I suppose I should get some and try it. Can you give me a brand or a link to what you use? |
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| Author: | doncaparker [ Thu Aug 03, 2023 2:58 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Controversial topic |
You can find urea for sale at Homestead Finishing, the company run by Jeff Jewitt, a well known finishing guru and guitar builder. Here is a link to the right page of his website: https://homesteadfinishingproducts.com/ ... ents-misc/ You can also find it on eBay, but there you have to make sure you are getting the right stuff. If you buy it from Jeff, you know you are getting the right stuff. |
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| Author: | jfmckenna [ Thu Aug 03, 2023 3:18 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Controversial topic |
Epoxy is good for a boat but not as a pore filler on a fine guitar. <Spittoon>  ![[uncle]](./images/smilies/surrenderflagqv6.gif "Uncle")
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| Author: | bcombs510 [ Thu Aug 03, 2023 3:55 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Controversial topic |
Many people building instruments based on material properties don’t really know what they are doing and why. I include myself in that group.  Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro |
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| Author: | banjopicks [ Thu Aug 03, 2023 3:59 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Controversial topic |
jfmckenna wrote: Epoxy is good for a boat but not as a pore filler on a fine guitar. <Spittoon> Now I want to know what your preference is. |
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| Author: | doncaparker [ Thu Aug 03, 2023 3:59 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Controversial topic |
Oh, here's a good one! Bolt-on necks are for sissies. (I'm currently building a Gore/Gilet bolt-on, bolt-off, so this is a mammoth self-own.)
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| Author: | dofthesea [ Thu Aug 03, 2023 4:27 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Controversial topic |
Tonewood has nothing to do with how an electric sounds. |
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| Author: | banjopicks [ Thu Aug 03, 2023 5:30 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Controversial topic |
Luv it |
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| Author: | joshnothing [ Thu Aug 03, 2023 5:40 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Controversial topic |
Instrument construction is faster and easier with hot hide glue. Choosing to use titebond or other AR/PVAs offers no benefit and needlessly slows your progress. |
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| Author: | joshnothing [ Thu Aug 03, 2023 6:38 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Controversial topic |
doncaparker wrote: Oh, here's a good one! Bolt-on necks are for sissies. Also for sissies: kerfed linings |
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| Author: | banjopicks [ Fri Aug 04, 2023 8:24 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Controversial topic |
Jumping on the sissy bandwagon here. Apparently, building guitars with anything more than a pocket knife and hide glue is for sissies! |
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| Author: | jfmckenna [ Fri Aug 04, 2023 9:13 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Controversial topic |
banjopicks wrote: jfmckenna wrote: Epoxy is good for a boat but not as a pore filler on a fine guitar. <Spittoon> Now I want to know what your preference is. I truly hate pore filling. I tried epoxy once and hated it. Too messy and it stinks. My favorite method was using CA and a slurry of sawdust, very fast method and dries nice and hard but I have also heard it caused problems for some in the future. I have also used egg whites which works really quite well. Now I prefer Aqua-Coat which is also reasonably fast and seems to do a good job pore filling and is easy to tint with water base dyes. |
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| Author: | DennisK [ Fri Aug 04, 2023 9:22 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Controversial topic |
banjopicks wrote: Jumping on the sissy bandwagon here. Apparently, building guitars with anything more than a pocket knife and hide glue is for sissies! Nah, you're only a sissy if you use power tools and expensive specialized hand tools (like my lovely Veritas plow plane). General purpose chisels, gouges, hand saws, planes, etc. are fine. I do feel a little spoiled using an electric hot pot instead of charcoal (or better yet, burning my wood scraps) to heat the hide glue. Sometime I need to try doing an inlay-heavy guitar without the dremel router. |
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