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I've been wondering about long-term acoustic guitar health, especially when it comes to keeping a neck reset from becoming necessary. There seems to be a variety of designs that stabilize the neck block area and would like to hear some of the forum's thoughts on the matter.

Off the top of my head I know of folks using a beefy transverse brace, a Spanish heel, an upside down Spanish heel with support under the upper frets of the fingerboard, carbon fiber rods going from the neck block to the waist (Rick Turner and others), a frame that spans the area from the neck block to the waist (Mike Doolin's guitars have this) and I've even seen a large carbon fiber tube that spans the entire length of the guitar body from block to block. Oh, and the Traugott floating back brace is designed to keep the back from deforming the body and folding up from what I understand.

Any thoughts or experiences to share with your own guitars? Is the extra implementation worth the extra time and possibly weight? Are any of these just a belt and suspenders long term insurance plan or do you feel that it's worth it to go the extra mile? With bolt-on necks so popular, is the worry over a neck reset moot? Thanks in advance.

My opinions have not changed since I wrote this http://www.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10101&t=47103
I use Spanish heels, but I don't believe the type of neck joint has any influence on the long-term deformation rate. I like them because it's lighter weight, less work, easier to get the geometry right, and allows these fancy curvy cutaway transitions and low-profile heel so you can keep your thumb on the back of the neck at higher frets.

Electric style bolt-on would be even better on that last point, but it just looks wrong to me on an acoustic. Although I may try it sometime for an adjustable neck angle joint. Attach the neck with a hinge near the edge of the body, and put a thumb screw under the fingerboard extension near the soundhole so you can reach in with your finger and turn it to push up and tilt the neck back, or unscrew it to let the neck tilt forward further.

Making the neck "tiltable" similar to what Stauffer did in the 1800's can not only obviate the need for a neck reset, but can also allow for action adjustments on the fly. I use a simple hardware store solution of socket head cap screws and T-nuts rather than the more expensive Stauffer style mechanism which seems to work O.K. and can be easily renewed if it does eventually fail. Being able to tilt the neck can compensate for the body deformation, which is often the reason the neck needs to be reset. It also makes the initial setting of the neck less critical

Recently in the history of guitars a major manufacturer changed their view of neck resets from something that was covered under an excellent warranty to something that will only be covered now if there are signs of a defect in materials or workmanship. More specifically a visual gap that develops between the heel and body.

The thinking at this producer has changed from neck resets are a big, bad thing that need warranty protection to it's an expected part of normal maintenance over the life of a conventionally built guitar.

I've been on this forum for a long time and lots of folks including me come here looking to build a better mouse trap. Then along the way some of us discover that your typical Martin type construction for say an 18 or 28 is pretty hard to beat in a number of respects. Tradition is also a very powerful force in the minds of guitar purchasers.

There are issues with every implementation that I am aware of and a major one that we would never recommend is any implementation that is not serviceable now and into the infinite future. Neck angles deteriorate, guitars dry out.... some fool will put steel strings on a guitar braced for nylon strings, **** happens and neck angles deteriorate.

Guitars suffer injuries, get run over when left behind a car being loaded and the driver does not know there is a guitar still on the deck behind the vehicle. Necks need to be replaced at times and again neck angles deteriorate for a variety of reasons.

In addition bridges lift and tops crack as well. All of these things are issues that we can engineer out of the picture but what we may be left with is a dead sounding, heavy instrument that requires a heavy hand to make sing.

So what's my point? My point is why? What's wrong with needing a neck reset in time if along the way, maybe 30 years or so you have a very high level of satisfaction with a light weight, responsive, sweet sounding instrument that does not take a heavy hand to make sing? Again some of us, me included believe that neck resets are a normal part of standard guitar maintenance in time when owning a conventionally built (Martin style) acoustic guitar.

Dovetail joints regardless of how some struggle with them come neck reset time are a beautiful engineering accomplishment. They are simple, effective and serviceable and there is no need for a hardware store and all the associated mass and other issues such as corrosion with some implementations.

As for my 54.5 guitars that I built I came here wanting to build a better mouse trap too and in awe of some of the bigger names mentioned. Then I realized that at least for me it would be better to learn to build conventionally before I tackled anything else. It is NOT easy to build a great acoustic guitar with a proper neck angle and dovetail neck joint. But it's rewarding as all hell so we go for it.

I came to accept that neck resets are to be expected and sure we can build a brick **** house instrument that will never need a neck reset but the associated down sides can make it not worth it.

Lastly you left out the flying buttress implementations to belay neck resets there are at least three builders I can think of that do that. All of these methods may be effective or may not work only time will tell but at what price in other ways?

So in the end I settled on just a few things for my own, massive neck block twice the depth of a Martin and .020 CF laminated in my upper transverse brace. We are 18 years now into some of mine that I have here and neck angles have not moved at all.

The biggest mental hurdle for builders starting out is getting over the intimidation that comes with the dreaded phrase NECK RESET. Most who start building are doing so without a background in repair and so NECK RESETS may seem like torturous procedures that must be avoided at all costs.

But a neck reset on a well built guitar with a conventional neck joint is really no big deal in the life of a fine instrument (we’re trying to build fine instruments, right?). Those in the trade know it’s one of the meat-and-potatoes jobs like bridge reglues and refrets, that most all guitars end up needing at some point.

For an owner, surely spending the money for a reset and maybe a refret after 15 to 25 years of enjoyment of a high-quality instrument is really not a big deal. It’s basic maintenance on wear components, and on our other possessions, vehicles, machinery, furniture, electronics we seem to be willing to spend many many times more when necessary. We’re (hopefully) talking here about fine instruments worth thousands up to tens of thousands of dollars. How is the cost of a reset, amortised over 10 or 20 years of use, a big deal?

Then there’s the practicality of testing any new design that you cook up - you’d need to build many, many guitars and have them out in the world for decades, and then somehow round them all up to examine them, before you could draw a meaningful conclusion about whether your design is a success. You got time for that?

So I find the basic premise of the question facile. Make the guitars sound and play beautifully, make them look nice and just use a regular dovetail or bolted neck joint so a repair guy or gal doesn’t have to jump through hoops to keep the thing playing beautifully for the next 100 years.

I’ve seen a lot of guitars over the years with a variety of different styles/philosophies/techniques, and have also made many various things with ingenious thoughts of my own added, and have discovered that most guitars built light enough to sound good will likely require some adjustment along the line. The tension has to go somewhere. And as Josh mentioned, it’ll take quite some time to discover if a built in remedy is effective.

In that light, I’ve come to appreciate a mechanical joint, whether it be bolt on/off, M&T, double M&T, whatever, as I agree with Hesh, there’s nothing wrong with needing a neck reset. It’s like changing a flat tire on a bicycle.

What I like about the mechanical systems is that they’re so much easier to do (when it comes to resets, that is, as opposed to in production environments where a good dovetail is the result of a good jig and two quick router cuts, which may explain it’s popularity in early mass production, except no, it’s definitely for the tone, wood to wood contact amiright, until a reset?).

So maybe a dovetail with cooperative glue properties may run a client 450-800$ depending, including occasional finish work depending on circumstances, maybe more in other circumstances.

Whereas many mechanical joint resets can be accomplished in 15 minutes or less. So if you build with the idea in mind that even if you build very cleverly, there’s still a good chance what you build will still need future service, it makes sense to me to build with an easily serviceable neck joint.

But that’s just me…:)

Neck sets are part of guitars.

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John Hall
blues creek guitars
Authorized CF Martin Repair
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You Don't know what you don't know until you know it

I was thinking about this thread and wanted to come back to it there is information here that is not accurate.

If you are building a steel string guitar a Spanish heel neck joint is a very bad idea. Why? It's not serviceable and was never intended to be reset in time.

Sure there are examples of people doing unnatural acts to them to improve neck angle slipping this and that and forcing the geometry into something it's not intended to be. There have also been lawsuits that I am personally aware of for failed attempts to slip a neck block which for steel strings can be known two ways. California folks not wanting to get the blame for the poor practice might call it a Michigan reset and Michigan folks like me call it a California reset not wanting to get any on me....

A dovetail can have its neck angle adjusted multiple times too and we have worked on guitars that were ready for their third neck reset and the joint and instrument are still completely serviceable.

Then there is KISS, keep it simple......

I Googled "do classical guitars need neck resets" and even Google knew the right answer:

"The actual string tension on a Classical is much less than on a steel string guitar, therefore there are fewer cases for a reset. Much depends on the construction of the individual guitar. Thick top with heavy bracing and the Classical may never need a reset"

Classicals are different animals with a different string tension environment. They also tend to be cared for a little better in my experience and are more so found with adult owners which seems to make them show up in repair shops less. I'm speculating on the demographics here but we see very few of them and I have never seen a classical that needed a neck reset. I'm sure it's possible but not common.

They do however shed bridges especially with cedar tops. So much so that an industry joke is Cordoba is Spanish for bridge reglue.....

Such quality thought in this thread. Thanks for everyone pitching in and sharing their experiences.

I'd like to address the idea that a neck reset should be considered to be standard practice over the course of a guitar's life. A builder or repair person might see it this way, but I'm sure we've seen and played people's guitars that were in great need of a reset and the owner just won't bite the bullet and get it done. Lots of guitar shops have older instruments that they are trying to sell that could use a reset. I'd bet that most folks on these forums have a good idea of what's entailed and have watched individuals reset necks on youtube, but I would also bet that most acoustic owners have little to no idea about how they work and would suffer through lousy action to avoid service. Perhaps not with higher end instruments though. Still, it might be daunting to entrust your prized guitar to someone who might not have the top level chops to do the job the right way.

I remember the Taylor literature a loooooong while back touting their easily removable necks and I like the idea of an easily removable neck a great deal. Ed, you are right on in your thread above. I also like the adjustable neck like Clay mentioned. The flying buttress design Hesh mentioned, I lumped in with Turner and Doolin, and I remember the first time I saw pics inside a Compass Rose guitar and I thought it was a series of great ideas put together to give a nod to longevity of an instrument (although Turner also included an adjustable neck function in case things needed to be tweaked down the road!).

It's good to know that some strategic bracing and enlarging the neck block has made your guitars more stable, Hesh. Simple and effective seems to still work!

Thanks again for all the comments. I'm still dipping my toe into the acoustic guitar making world (after many years of reading and learning). It's good to keep sharing experiences and perspectives.

On the Harmony Sovereigns that I rebuild, I add 2 short, 1/4" X 1/4" spruce braces, wedged between the neck block and the front transverse brace. One at each side of the neck block, and glued to the popsicle brace. This adds some protection against neck movement, has very little effect on sound, is not radically unconventional, and is easily removable. On a new build, it would not interfere with truss rod adjustment thru the sound hole.

Many of the guitars that need resets are the cheaper variety that makes the cost of a reset prohibitive. Like cell phones with glued in batteries, many wind up in the landfill.
Here is an archived discussion from the MIMForum you might find interesting: https://www.mimf.com/library/Details_of ... -2008.html
If a guitar is lightly built to be "responsive" there is a good chance the top will "pull up" more than one that has a thicker top. This can make it hard to judge how much the neck needs to be "overset" initially, especially for a new builder. Having some provision for adjusting the final neck angle may be prudent. Taylor's bolt on design with an easily reset-able neck set them apart from most makers and was one reason for their popularity with the guitar buying public.
The simple elegance of the classical guitar neck joint and the tapered dovetail commonly used on steel string guitars certainly has a place in the lutherie world, but not I believe to the exclusion of all other methods of construction.

I know many people, myself included that will put up with less than great action to avoid this process. I've been asked by friends to reset there Martin necks. I guess they think I'll do it at friend rates. Honestly, I don't have that much experience resetting necks and every one I've done, could have been better. I'm getting better practicing on cheap guitars but there's a lot to be said for experience or having an experienced mentor looking over your shoulder. Once I nail the process of setting a neck, I'll give them a call, but for now, I send them to more experience luthiers. But, they won't go. Just continue to put up with less than perfect action. These friends of mine all play bluegrass on Martins.

So, yeah, resets are expected on these things but it won't happen until the guitar is un-playable. My 2nd guitar I'm working on will have bolts. I'd like to try allen wrench adjuster I saw in this thread.

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Hutch

Get the heck off the couch and go build a guitar!!!!

I believe in the 'neck resets are part of the guitar' too but I have done a couple things to help. I do not however know if they work yet as I only started this design about ten years ago but the design makes sense to me. I use an A-Frame design where the 'sound hole' braces extend to the head block and are notched into the UTB. I also arch the UTB for strength, and for proper neck angle to the bridge too. I also aim high for my initial saddle height. I like to have a saddle protrude about 3/16th inch and have gotten pretty good at getting that right off the bat now. That way the future owner can have setups done on it to bring the saddle down at least 1/16th or a bit more which should last many more years. Finally I use the old school Taylor style bolt on butt joint which can easily be flossed to adjust the neck angle a slight bit.

So between saddle height and flossing the guitar should have a good run of many years before the neck has to be removed and perhaps the extension shimmed. I've not seen one get to that point even on my older ones that are 25 years now. Though I suppose it could be the case that it has, I just don;t know.

Yeah, that's my expectation from the majority of guitar owners. Resetting my Spanish heels is similar difficulty to a dovetail, thanks to the use of hide glue, shellac finish, and no back binding. Peel open the upper bout seam, crank the neck back and reglue it, file the edge back smooth, and spot finish. But I'd still expect them to go some years of disuse due to high action before anyone would actually do it. Too easy to just pick up a different guitar instead. Bolts are a middle ground, but I'd rather just go straight to screw-adjustable. Plus it would be handy for seasonal adjustments. Maybe we should make a new thread to discuss designs...

In the professional Luthier circles a Spanish Heel is not considered a "serviceable neck joint" in the same meaning and utility as a proper dovetail joint. It's misleading to claim it is and you are misleading people Dennis when you imply that a "Spanish heel is similar difficulty to a dovetail." I can't think of a Pro Luthier who would agree with this statement and I believe your statement to be untrue.

The industry rejected Spanish heels for steel strings pretty much since the inception of the steel string when the Spanish heel was an option at that time and beyond and there is a reason for this, it's unsuitable and unserviceable.

There is also the issue of YOU may not be the one working on one of your creations, Dennis and others may not know how to proceed because they won't intuitively know what the hell you did.

Serviceability by definition also implies that a specific individual is not required for servicing.

Dovetails are easier and more importantly MUCH more predictable to reset than a Spanish heel where you are peeling the back off and intentionally distorting the body geometry which can lead to other issues.... When you slip a neck block you are adding stresses to new places in the structure and when all is said and done and clamps are released the outcome has much more of a dependency on the new stresses induced by distorting the body and progress made on the neck angle may relax or increase making them less predictable.

Others may not be using shellac finishes and when you peel the back and slip a neck block finish touch-up is going to be required more so than for a dovetail. For most guitars that's more spray booth time, more toxic finishes, more costs and more time. Shellac finishes are also not suitable for a number of situations especially gigging musicians. Imagine the mess scoring the finish and cutting through it on the Spanish heel pictured above and then the finish touch-up required to blend that all in if using a suitable finish for real life for most guitarists.

Another issue will be finding someone dumb enough to take this on as a reset and I am being kind using the word dumb.... We would decline and tell a client that the builder used an unsuitable neck joint and we don't want to get any on us. That's less serviceable too when repair shops don't want to touch it.

For a conventional neck reset the lion's share of the client wait is for finish touch-up which whenever it can be reduced, the need for it it's a good thing.

When I carve a dovetail and bang the neck on and check action it's not going to change when I glue it up from what I have when I am sneaking up on the neck angle I want. My results are predictable and when all is said and done nothing changes and the neck angle is good and where I want it once again.

A Spanish heel is not a suitable neck joint for a steel string guitar when it comes to serviceability, period.

If I were faced with resetting a Spanish heel I would be more inclined to plane down the fingerboard and refret rather than adjust the neck angle. If for some reason that is not practical (cheap student classical) I would consider cutting the neck off with an oscillating tool and converting it to a "bolt on".
Many of the people who argue against the easily serviceable bolt on neck because of the added weight are the same people who don't object to the added weight of a double acting truss rod. Repair people may not like bolt on necks because they cause the loss of a lucrative part of the business. Resetting a glued in dovetail neck requires experience and skill to do it properly. A guitar owner with the right information, a few common tools, and a modicum of skill can ret set the guitar neck themselves.

This is why my inherited Martin 69 D28 slot head that needs a neck reset as it’s not playable rests in its case. Who’s scared? I ain’t scared?


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Clay I agree with most of this but the part about the loss of business. I could give a darn what kind of neck joint something has in terms of revenue and most of the neck resets we do these days are often bolt-ons or Taylor bolt-ons. Both very serviceable and both great for a steel string. I prefer a proper dovetail not as a Luthier but as a collector and player though.

Sometimes I think that some folks, and I am not speaking of you Clay are unaware of dedicated, busy repair shops. All across the nation quality repair shops are booked very far out at present and it's been this way for over two years now. We are and we are turning away most of what comes our way. I was at Northwoods last week it's the same story everywhere.

So I would not be concerned about revenue lost by an easy to reset neck. In fact neck resets for us are undesirable and we limit ourselves to a certain number because of the opportunity costs of doing one. I can make more doing other things in the same amount of time. With this said an instrument that never needs a neck reset would even be welcome by me, who needs to have to do neck resets....

Martin has the fairly new SC series where a gigging musician or player at home can reset their own neck in minutes with simple tools and no neck removal the neck angle is adjustable. We have a number of clients who have these and like them.

I've been running an informal poll with pro Luthiers and so far we are 11 - 0 in agreement that a Spanish Heel is unsuitable for and never intended to be used on a steel string.

Lastly for others here. You may not be all that concerned with serviceability but reputations in this industry have been harmed by unserviceable product offerings and so have the customers who bought them and then found that the value received from their coin was.... limited by short sided thinking re: serviceability.

Case in point - O*ation guitars have earned a very poor reputation for serviceability and as such some shops will not even work on them at all....

I was scared too but they are really no different from what you have already done, setting the proper neck angle, that's the hardest part and not all that hard. The two additional tasks are neck removal which is not difficult and finish touch-up which I find the most difficult part. Finishing gurus would not find the finish touch up difficult so that's just me.

You could do one Brad I am sure of it and good on you for not jumping in on a valuable instrument and caring about it as you do, I respect that greatly and wish more folks were like you in this respect.

Hi Hesh,
I did add a couple of "weasel words" in my statement (may not) about the loss of business from simply reset -able guitar necks. I like to do that just in case...
For those who enjoy reading a bit of blarney, here is something you may get a chuckle out of:
http://onemanz.com/guitar/articles-2/ma ... -dovetail/

Oh - Brad, I have an LG 3/4 size in the closet in need of a neck reset I've been putting off for a couple of decades.

Neither here nor there… I love the idea of a dovetail. Just couldn’t figure out how to do with an upper bout with a 16’ radius as opposed to a flat surface.


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I did my first neck reset on a Martin 0-16NY. Came out fine - just took me a few days because I worked very slowly. The guitar is mine so I wasn't learning on someone else's axe.

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Steve Smith
"Music is what feelings sound like"

I know we've all seen horror stories on youtube of botched neck resets crammed with gunk and screws and all sorts of piled on shims and then there's the Norlin-era Gibson stuff and I believe that Guild necks are a struggle even if someone hasn't made a mess of them.

Is there a line of guitars (or even an individual builder) who consistently does things right and makes for consistent work for a repair person? One that comes apart without excess steam and the dovetail pocket is directly under a fret slot? No sprayed lacquer over the neck joint and well-fit from the get-go?

I’m going to disagree with everything here

Firstly, neck resets are one of the least lucrative parts of the repair business in my experience. The reality is they can be time consuming to get done to a professional standard which includes the required finish work and in many cases fret work and they take up a bench that could have generated more income in the same time period doing other types of repair work. It’s not they are unprofitable - just less profitable than other repairs. If resets disappeared tomorrow annual revenue in my business would increase.

I can’t speak for others but I offer resets in part because guitar repair is a service industry and I wish to offer the guitarists in my community the service of keeping their valued instruments in good playing condition.



I think our perspective can be skewed here as people who build guitars (whether amateur or pro) and possess keen interest as well as vast and detailed knowledge, skills and workshop tooling. To us, a bolt on reset might be a snoozer but to your average joe it ain’t. I deal daily with keen players of 40+ years experience who cannot adjust their truss rod or in some cases install strings properly. I deal with customers who are astonished to learn that you might lower a saddle to reduce action, or that a giant crack running through their bridge is a problem that might require fixing. Some players do understand the technical side of things in theory but have never held a chisel in their life. None of these people are likely to be capable of resetting a Collings bolt neck and having it come out looking right where the heel meets the sides and with correct geometry.

Then there’s the warranty side of things, and many understand they risk of voiding their warranty with amateur tinkering. I’d put the percentage of the general guitar owning community who could do any type of neck reset to a decent standard at < 0.05%.

Mine had a radius and I can't recall what it was but I know my OMs had a radius that you could easily see, Dreads not so much. They ARE harder to fit and took me longer so I can relate James. It was my belief although I can't prove it that a radius where the neck intersect with the body would be stronger than a flat. You know a domed roof is stronger than a flat roof kind of thing. But again I can't prove this and have to wait 15 - 30 years for one of mine to find in half to know....