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| back and side set ~1bf http://w-ww.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10101&t=55895 |
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| Author: | banjopicks [ Tue Sep 12, 2023 9:38 am ] |
| Post subject: | back and side set ~1bf |
I was looking at some nice flamed maple on FB marketplace. The price is around $12 bf for some real nice looking guitar wood. Short drive, no shipping. I decided to figure out the bf of a back and side set and correct me if I'm wrong but it's about 1 bf total. I then looked at some back and side sets with flamed big leaf maple going for $200. Holy crap, that's a big markup for a little sawing. I mean, I'd gladly pay someone $50 for sawing my wood but, $178?? |
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| Author: | A.Hix [ Tue Sep 12, 2023 10:28 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: back and side set ~1bf |
There is much more to it than that.. you turn at least a third into sawdust, there is falloff waste (end cuts, rip cut waste), internal defect that you can't see on outside that makes it appearance unexpectedly, etc. Much more involved as well, that you don't often understand until you experience it.. |
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| Author: | Ed Haney [ Tue Sep 12, 2023 11:20 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: back and side set ~1bf |
A.Hix wrote: There is much more to it than that.. you turn at least a third into sawdust, there is falloff waste (end cuts, rip cut waste), internal defect that you can't see on outside that makes it appearance unexpectedly, etc. Much more involved as well, that you don't often understand until you experience it.. So true! There is also my greediness that has to be avoided. Namely, trying to get more yield and cutting it too thin, thereby creating more waste(unusable pieces) than expected. As me how I know. |
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| Author: | doncaparker [ Tue Sep 12, 2023 12:03 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: back and side set ~1bf |
Leaving aside the market craziness that ensues regarding particular woods (like Brazilian Rosewood), what we pay for these woods is a fair representation of the costs associated with getting them in the ready-made condition they are in when we buy them, plus a modest profit. Otherwise, the market would push back and demand lower prices. The free market isn't always sane, but it mostly is for things like this. If you talk to other woodworkers, yes, the "per board foot" cost of guitar making wood is way, way higher than what other woodworkers pay for lumber. But they are not buying what we are buying to make what we are making. If you can buy billets of the right species of lumber large enough to cut your own quartersawn backs/sides/tops, and you have the ability to resaw at the required sizes, then you can try to save some money doing it yourself. Some folks succeed at that. A lot of us realize that, when you add up everything, we are better off buying sets from folks like Aaron Hix. |
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| Author: | banjopicks [ Tue Sep 12, 2023 12:14 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: back and side set ~1bf |
This is one of those things I'd like to see for myself. I don't even have a good bandsaw and will have to cut on my TS and finish with a hand saw. I'll waste an extra 16th doing it this way but I still think it would be worth the effort. I'm not made of money and don't have clients waiting for my guitars so I would prefer to not spend more than required. As long as the end result is the same that is. |
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| Author: | SteveSmith [ Tue Sep 12, 2023 12:20 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: back and side set ~1bf |
I’ve cut some sets for myself. I agree with what the others have said and I don’t cut my own anymore. But hey, no reason not to give it a try. Don’t try to cut it too thin, I ruined some Bubinga that way. Steve |
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| Author: | meddlingfool [ Tue Sep 12, 2023 12:36 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: back and side set ~1bf |
Hoo hoo! What Aaron said. I suggest starting on affordable wood if you really want to learn more about resawing wood for guitar makers…lots of walnut around… |
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| Author: | Ken Nagy [ Tue Sep 12, 2023 12:40 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: back and side set ~1bf |
I was looking for nice quartersawn wood last weekend. Good luck with that. Rift, or slabs are everywhere. I have re-sawn wood with Ryoba saws. It is an experience. Then plane by hand. I have a large board of Wenge in waiting, The wide 1/2" Doug Fir I'll take to the mill. The second piece of perfect quartered fir I've found there. This one is even longer and wider. I really have to try it, I like the look. |
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| Author: | meddlingfool [ Tue Sep 12, 2023 12:42 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: back and side set ~1bf |
Usually everything in the lumber yard is rift. Perfectly flat and vertical grain has been sorted out at the mills for specialty houses as it fetches the best price. Lumberyard gets the leftovers… |
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| Author: | banjopicks [ Tue Sep 12, 2023 12:48 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: back and side set ~1bf |
meddlingfool wrote: Usually everything in the lumber yard is rift. Perfectly flat and vertical grain has been sorted out at the mills for specialty houses as it fetches the best price. Lumberyard gets the leftovers… For backs and sides, curly maple, I don't see how it would matter. |
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| Author: | meddlingfool [ Tue Sep 12, 2023 1:41 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: back and side set ~1bf |
Well then, get to it! |
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| Author: | banjopicks [ Tue Sep 12, 2023 1:54 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: back and side set ~1bf |
No, I'm just thinking out loud right now. The ad got my attention but I have a lot of wood to go through before I try this. |
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| Author: | meddlingfool [ Tue Sep 12, 2023 2:11 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: back and side set ~1bf |
The reality is that you can indeed save a huge amount of money cutting your own wood, but you shoulder a lot of risk in terms of both money and time spent. Slabs are like a box of chocolate, you never know what’s in there til you open one up… |
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| Author: | Clay S. [ Tue Sep 12, 2023 2:52 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: back and side set ~1bf |
If you buy rough sawn lumber and get 4 slices out of it you can figure it this way: Backs 2' X 2/3' X1/2 = 2/3 bd ft Sides 3' X 1/3' X 1/2 = 1/2 bd ft That is if everything works out perfectly. If you pick through the lumber you may find some boards that are close to quarter sawn, and considering how many sets offered for high prices have some off quarter wood you may do just as well. Domestic woods (walnut, maple, cherry, oak) can make fine guitars, and suitable wood may not be that hard to source. I've resawn wood on a 10" table saw by by cutting full depth (3") then flipping it over and cutting the opposite side full depth, and then cutting the remaining center part with a hand saw (or band saw) using the kerfs to help guide the saw. It is easier to find the wood to be resawn than it is to get around to resawing it, so I have a bit of a "back log" I have been laminating veneers and I like the fact that there is a lot less dust and work involved than in resawing and thicknessing lumber. It can also be an economical way to create back and side sets. Although I will scrounge brace wood, I think spruce soundboards offered by the sponsors are great value for the money, especially in the "middle grades" because of the selection and care in processing the logs used. I have found suitable western red cedar boards for resawing soundboards at the better lumberyards by picking through the stack (and then restacking so as not t P.O. the workers). Resawing wood is cheaper than buying finished sets, but you are trading the time and labor of finding suitable wood, processing it, marketing and shipping it - the costs of which the luthier supplier has to bear. |
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| Author: | dofthesea [ Tue Sep 12, 2023 4:14 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: back and side set ~1bf |
here is the problem with your philosophy.......... Most people have been down this road and said forget about it. There is a huge learning curve and there is a lot to understand about wood and for most beginners they just don't get it. Give it a shot. lol You're better off finding a cost effective Luthier wood supplier. try peeps like Fiddleback Wood Shack, Elite Tonewood or Pacifica Coast Woods they have Really nice wood for way less then Lmi or the sorts. There is a lot more to the eye then oh I can buy some cheap maple and saw me up some cheap sets for $25 a set |
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| Author: | bobgramann [ Tue Sep 12, 2023 5:51 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: back and side set ~1bf |
I resaw my own sets to get what isn’t commercially available. I had a little extra wood and considered sawing some sets and selling them. When I looked at the time and effort involved, I decided that I didn’t want to work for that little money. I would spend my time on things that I enjoyed doing or on things that are more lucrative. Buying sets already processed is a greeat convenience and usually worth the price. |
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| Author: | joshnothing [ Wed Sep 13, 2023 12:18 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: back and side set ~1bf |
Didn’t you start another thread complaining about the challenges you are facing finding enough shop time to work on a guitar? How does learning to resaw tonewood (without a decent bandsaw) factor into that equation? As others have said, sawing your own makes the most financial sense if you have a surfeit of time. And a bandsaw. |
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| Author: | banjopicks [ Wed Sep 13, 2023 6:29 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: back and side set ~1bf |
Time is on its way. I'm going to cut back on working next year. As for the sawing, the tablesaw will take care of most of it, leaving about an inch of sawing. That said, I may get a better bandsaw or just buy the expensive pre-cut stuff. |
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| Author: | Victor Seal [ Wed Sep 13, 2023 7:12 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: back and side set ~1bf |
I have resawn boards into sets, but only stuff that i got for free. I wouldn't buy a board to resaw into sets. I leave that to those who have the equipment and experience. |
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| Author: | phavriluk [ Wed Sep 13, 2023 8:11 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: back and side set ~1bf |
If building guitars is a journey of learning, then I can see that resawing a likely candidate board ONCE makes some sense, just for the been-there-done-that experience. Otherwise buy inexpensive domestic woods sawn and sanded and go build something. Right now I'm building a white oak bodied guitar, the sanded b/s set cost twenty bucks, plus shipping. I sure can't see where a hobby builder needs a monster bandsaw that costs what five guitars would cost - complete - using supplier-sourced b/s sets and soundboards, and that's not considering the time spent playing Paul Bunyan. I decided I had better uses for my time and funds. |
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| Author: | rbuddy [ Wed Sep 13, 2023 9:27 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: back and side set ~1bf |
To Banjopicks original question. You're going to have to find a suitable piece of wood and it's probably going to have to be something like 1x8x36 minimum to supply back and sides from the same board so you're already looking at 2 BF. Cutting with a table saw you may easily find you need 5/4 or 6/4 wood to account for surfacing and a tablesaw blade kerf and waste when cutting. So, with a little luck and a good billet you can save money but add a lot of work to your project and there is risk something will go wrong. There is a lot to consider when weighing doing your own cutting or not. And there is going to be a break point somewhere in the number of sets required to save enough to pay for the equipment to get it done well and reliably. Without the skill set with wood and the right tools for the job, things can easily go wrong and there is little more disappointing than screwing up a set that could be worth a couple hundred bucks. Personally, loving wood and tools, I'd never waste an opportunity that could justify a tool upgrade if I could afford it. When I decided to branch out from furniture, fiddles and banjos to guitars I had plenty of time while studying guitars to tool up. I'd had enough hit and miss experience resawing on a 14" delta BS to know it wasn't making the "cut" for me. So, a decent 19" bandsaw and a 1" carbide resaw blade and some careful setup and 2 days of sawing sets from wood I had or had bought for guitars and I had a stack of around 50 sets. I'm quite sure I could sell them and pay for the saw and blade. To me, that's about the payout point for doing your own cutting. How many sets does it take to have a pay off? Full disclosure, it helped having a jointer and a planer with shelix carbide heads too but less a requirement IMO. If you are probably only going to make 1, 2 or 10 guitars you are most likely much better off just buying sets. Sure, you can get by with less in tools if you have the time and are stubborn enough. My life is full of those adventures too. Brian |
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| Author: | Clay S. [ Wed Sep 13, 2023 9:52 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: back and side set ~1bf |
I build a number of different instruments, so I still do some resawing. It doesn't take that long to do, and for some instruments back and side sets are not commonly available. If you buy your wood locally you can often save quite a bit of money. You probably won't get a perfect yield calculated on the minimum board feet required because it is unusual to find a board perfectly dimensioned for resawing. Even with the expected waste you will still save money if you don't consider your time. What doesn't make sense for a professional is perfectly fine for a hobby builder. |
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| Author: | banjopicks [ Wed Sep 13, 2023 10:03 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: back and side set ~1bf |
I have this on my radar as a strong possibility. Laguna 14|bx 2-1/2HP 220V 14 bx Bandsaw. I don't care if I don't get a return on my investment. It's just another tool I've always wanted. That and a small CNC for inlays and small stuff. |
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| Author: | meddlingfool [ Wed Sep 13, 2023 10:24 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: back and side set ~1bf |
Def hold out for the SUV or a 20” saw if you’ve got the space… |
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| Author: | banjopicks [ Wed Sep 13, 2023 10:32 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: back and side set ~1bf |
meddlingfool wrote: Def hold out for the SUV or a 20” saw if you’ve got the space… SUV?? |
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