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| Shellac & hide glue http://w-ww.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10101&t=55907 |
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| Author: | dofthesea [ Sun Sep 17, 2023 10:46 am ] |
| Post subject: | Shellac & hide glue |
Just wanted to to let everyone know that Shellac and HHG are available at Shellac.net. Amazingly enough they are about 3 minutes from where I live. Great prices. |
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| Author: | Kbore [ Sun Sep 17, 2023 12:35 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Shellac & hide glue |
THats also where I get my lacquer, reducer and retarder...... great small business. |
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| Author: | bcombs510 [ Sun Sep 17, 2023 12:40 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Shellac & hide glue |
Hey, they have the “high clarity” hide glue. That’s how SM markets their jar which is pretty expensive, but I really like it. I will try this out. But, that website… Yeesh. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro |
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| Author: | banjopicks [ Sun Sep 17, 2023 1:54 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Shellac & hide glue |
I was just reading about button shellac. They claim tougher than lacquer. Can anyone verify that? |
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| Author: | Alan Carruth [ Sun Sep 17, 2023 3:16 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Shellac & hide glue |
You have to keep the concepts of 'hardness' and 'toughness' clear. In one set of experiments Martin Schleske found that nitrocellulose lacquer is about 1/3 harder and stiffer than the shellac he used. However, without the addition of plasticizers, such as the traditional castor oil, or newer synthetics, nitro is also quite brittle. It becomes more brittle with age as the plasticizers break down or evaporate, and (even more important) the finish itself breaks down from age and light exposure. Shellac is naturally cross-linked, and becomes more so over time. This makes it tougher; less likely to crack or scratch rather than dent, and more impervious to chemicals. In my experience the less processed shellacs are harder and tougher, but also darker. Most of the button lac I've seen is pretty dark, and I suspect it's only minimally processed, so it is likely to be harder and tougher than 'blond' or 'super blond' shellac. It's possible that it could wear better than some lacquers that have more plasticizer in them, but there are a lot of variables in this. Some people have body chemistry that can eat through a shellac finish in next to no time, where nitro would shrug it off. OTOH, I'd bet on the shellac 75 years down the road... |
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| Author: | joshnothing [ Sun Sep 17, 2023 4:33 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Shellac & hide glue |
bcombs510 wrote: Hey, they have the “high clarity” hide glue. That’s how SM markets their jar which is pretty expensive, but I really like it. I will try this out. As far as I know all the conventional hide glue in North America is produced by a single company and all the retailers just buy in bulk and resell small volumes in their own packaging. So if you like the SM high clarity you will be getting the same stuff you are used to. The price SM charges is pretty eye-watering. The exception to the above is import boutique nikawa hide glue from Japan, which is what all the cool violin kids are using these days. For Australians who have sticker shock at the price of US-made hide glue sold by local vendors, there is now an Australian-made hide glue for sale marketed as “luthier’s glue” which I’ve been using for the past 24 months in a commercial setting with good success. It’s a pretty strong brew (220+ gram strength according to vendor) and works well for bridge glue ups. |
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| Author: | bcombs510 [ Sun Sep 17, 2023 5:00 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Shellac & hide glue |
joshnothing wrote: So if you like the SM high clarity you will be getting the same stuff you are used to. The price SM charges is pretty eye-watering. Yeah, 45 bucks for 10 ounces is absurd. I only tried it because of the “high clarity” claim. I wanted to see what it was all about. I didn’t know others also market as “high clarity”. I have to say, it is nicer than the brand I was using before. Hopefully this is just as good for a fraction of the cost.  Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro |
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| Author: | joshnothing [ Sun Sep 17, 2023 5:18 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Shellac & hide glue |
It sure has less stank to it than the regular stuff! The SM stuff is 192g strength high clarity, high clarity is also available in higher gram strengths from vendors like Bjorn Industries. |
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| Author: | doncaparker [ Sun Sep 17, 2023 7:26 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Shellac & hide glue |
Brad (and all)-- Here is a link to 192 gram strength, what most of us will want to use: https://bjornhideglue.com/product/5-pou ... ade-192-2/ I don't think high clarity is a worthwhile thing to spend money on. We don't need for glue to be transparent unless we are using it as part of the finishing process (like CA glue). |
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| Author: | jfmckenna [ Sun Sep 17, 2023 7:46 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Shellac & hide glue |
I have been using buttons from shellac.net. I dewax it because it's very waxy stuff. I have no idea if it is stronger but have been using it based on a little faith in that claim. Not sure that taking the wax out makes a difference in strength. |
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| Author: | joshnothing [ Sun Sep 17, 2023 10:46 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Shellac & hide glue |
doncaparker wrote: Brad (and all)-- Here is a link to 192 gram strength, what most of us will want to use: https://bjornhideglue.com/product/5-pou ... ade-192-2/ I don't think high clarity is a worthwhile thing to spend money on. We don't need for glue to be transparent unless we are using it as part of the finishing process (like CA glue). My daily-use hhg is regular clarity but high clarity seems to have a much less agricultural smell which honestly can be nice when you are spending all day around it. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk |
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| Author: | doncaparker [ Sun Sep 17, 2023 11:14 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Shellac & hide glue |
Fair enough. Here is a link for high clarity 192 gram strength: https://bjornhideglue.com/product/1-pou ... grade-192/ My larger point is that, while I love StewMac, sometimes buying elsewhere makes more sense. |
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| Author: | Ken Nagy [ Mon Sep 18, 2023 6:16 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Shellac & hide glue |
I think it was on the bjorn site that I read that high clarity was from pig skin, and regular was from horse skin. My memory could be off. I do like the high clarity. I'm cheap, but 25% more is not going to break me. Oh, I see that for some reason they have 251 high clarity in twice, as $15 and on sale for $18 on the next page. Probably a mistake. |
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| Author: | joshnothing [ Mon Sep 18, 2023 6:26 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Shellac & hide glue |
I think glue is all mostly cowhide these days, Ken. The high clarity is just skimmed and filtered a little more. Pig skins are used for edible gelatin. If you want to get more exotic than cows, there’s Japanese deerskin glue… |
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| Author: | doncaparker [ Mon Sep 18, 2023 6:31 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Shellac & hide glue |
Ken— The “info” section of the Bjorn site says that most of their hide glue is made from cow skin. I have read elsewhere that the gelatin used to make Jello is from pig skin. I guess it is possible that the skins of other animals get tossed into the mix, but on an industrial level, you can see that we slaughter a lot more cows and pigs than we do horses. So, the byproducts from cows and pigs are more plentiful. It makes sense that most hide glue comes from the skins of those animals. |
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| Author: | Hesh [ Mon Sep 18, 2023 8:24 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Shellac & hide glue |
Dave and I looked into HHG suppliers nearly 20 years ago when we wanted to go direct to the source of where LMI got their HHG. We think it was Milligan and Higgins and they were at least at that time the only US producer of HHG. This may still be the case I don't know. Back then you could go direct but the minimum was a 50 lb bag..... What makes this important to us is that much of the time HHG from other places sucks and has been adulterated with bone and other animal parts including not from cows. You can tell at times by the smell HHG should not stink and if your's does and you did not get it from LMI might be worth asking your supplier where they got it. Other suppliers/distributers may be fine but they also may be stuff billed as HHG that is really not HHG.... In Europe lots of glues are sold as HHG that aren't by our definition. You will find more use of rabbits and other animals and it's not the same stuff that US guitar producers have used for well over a century. Regarding cost we use a goodly amount of HHG but when you divide it up into all the repairs that we do it's mouse nuts and there is no excuse not to use the best regardless of costs. When I was building it was my intent to build the very finest guitars I was capable of building. As such I never spared any expense and was known to use master grade tops and then paint them.... There is an infamous exchange here on the OLf where one member nearly stroked out over it when I bursted an Adi top. It was in hind sight rather sad on a number of levels.HHG is cheap considering the value rendered (pardon the pun ) and I would go for the best, always and be thankful that it's available to us.To be clear other distributers may have the real deal but I would specifically ask them if they are stateside if they get it from Milligan and Higgins and if not I might consider going elsewhere. |
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| Author: | jfmckenna [ Mon Sep 18, 2023 7:37 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Shellac & hide glue |
Been years since I sat down and watched football on TV but I'm in Colorado now visiting inlaws far away from my shop where I'd much prefer to talk about hide glue with y'all but.... gives me a new way to think about pig skin.
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| Author: | profchris [ Tue Sep 19, 2023 5:28 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Shellac & hide glue |
Where I am in the UK it's harder to get the refined HHG, so as an amateur I build with the browner stuff which I can get from eBay. It definitely has an aroma, but is not particularly unpleasant. I can confirm that it glues wood together very well, and in a well-fitting joint I can get an invisible glue line. As HHG, refined or not, is only really good in a well-fitting joint, I'm happy to continue with the cheap and easily available stuff. |
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| Author: | Hesh [ Tue Sep 19, 2023 7:30 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Shellac & hide glue |
profchris wrote: Where I am in the UK it's harder to get the refined HHG, so as an amateur I build with the browner stuff which I can get from eBay. It definitely has an aroma, but is not particularly unpleasant. I can confirm that it glues wood together very well, and in a well-fitting joint I can get an invisible glue line. As HHG, refined or not, is only really good in a well-fitting joint, I'm happy to continue with the cheap and easily available stuff. If it stinks I wouldn't use it. So you are telling me that LMI or StewMac won't ship HHG (the real stuff) to the UK? That's not been my experience with other UK Luthiers that I know. I also disagree on using "cheap and easily available stuff" because a guitar is ultimately the sum of its parts. Glue, quality glue should be considered a must for everyone here in my experience or you and or anyone who receives one of your creations may be struggling some day to pay me or others to fix it. |
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