Official Luthiers Forum!

Hey everyone, long time no post so
I figured a little controversy wouldn’t hurt! [SMILING FACE WITH OPEN MOUTH AND TIGHTLY-CLOSED EYES]
I had a conversation with a few people regarding this topic and just out of curiosity I thought I’d see what you guys have to say.
Some of my friends love to hunt, fish, gardening and other various types of hobbies. Some are very active in social media posting every aspect of their activities. They have their regular jobs, doctors, lawyers, carpenters, drivers, etc…
Why is it that many people once they build a couple of guitars on their spare time their title changes to luthier or guitar builder? Lots of them launch a website and are ready to start selling right away.
One of my acquaintances is starting a store selling handmade instruments and because higher end instruments are harder to get he ended up buying several guitars and ukes from not so well known or established builders. He regrets most purchases and not sure he should even sell them. I asked him why he bought them. He said that he saw post on FB and IG and everyone praised their build posts. My opinion is that these people were not ready (I saw the pictures) but rushed to bring their products to the market place.
Why the hurry? Being a full time builder is not easy! Getting a reputation is very hard and if you want to do this for a living your instruments should be able to withstand the scrutiny of a seasoned builder.
I know some people don’t care, it’s a hobby and they’re happy to build and have fun but others want to make some money from it or even go full time.
What is is about lutherie and the perception of it being a glorious job?
Thoughts?

_________________
Peter M.
Cornerstone Guitars
http://www.cornerstoneukes.com

I just started by showing people my guitars (the 2 I'd built) and people wanted to buy them after playing them.
Then it's been word of mouth mainly, and people playing my guitars that are out in the world.
Never had one back for repair, and I don't pretend to be an expert finisher, still trying, probably never be entirely satisfied.

_________________
The name catgut is confusing. There are two explanations for the mix up.

Catgut is an abbreviation of the word cattle gut. Gut strings are made from sheep or goat intestines, in the past even from horse, mule or donkey intestines.

Otherwise it could be from the word kitgut or kitstring. Kit meant fiddle, not kitten.

I never really thought of it as being a glorious job. I'd probably fall into the category of those who feel it's more of a calling, or really an obsession. After I built my first guitar I was hooked. Luthier to me means a builder of wooden musical instruments. While I've build a few Ukes and mando's I would call myself a guitar maker instead of luthier. The word gets tossed around a lot now in the general public to even mean a guy who does guitar set ups.

Your friend who runs the music shop would be wise to take Internet reviews with a grain of salt. Often times they are paid for and meaningless.

I don't however see a problem with anyone who makes anything trying to sell it. The market will figure out what the price is worth.

I would say where it becomes more important is in the line of repair work. We all have to start somewhere for sure but if you are 6 months to a year into it and have a pretty website that offers neck resets and refret jobs that might be borderline dishonest. But if you make a guitar and it looks like crap but maybe sounds good you have every right to try and sell it. People will either buy it or they wont no harm no foul.

I am not a luthier.
I have built some where around 25 guitars. Some I've hung onto, some friends have tried and bought, some went into the camp fire.
For me it's an addiction, I just can't stop.
Sometimes I wonder if a hard drug addiction would have been cheaper, not healthier, but cheaper.

_________________
Say what you do, Do what you say.

I am squarely in the hobbyist who wants to build for fun camp. I say I am a guitar maker because. . . I make guitars. . . but only in reference to questions like "What kind of woodworking do you do?" I certainly don't consider myself a luthier. I think your point about work being able to withstand the scrutiny of a seasoned maker is a great point. I would love to be able to get more hones feedback about my work from pros. Not really to get any kind of credential but just to get more direction on where and how to improve. You don't know what you don't know. I think many people feel like they are ready to sell but just can't see what they don't know.

_________________
Bryan Bear PMoMC

Take care of your feet, and your feet will take care of you.

Hi Peter,
So you have friends that are hunters and fisherman and gardeners whose vocations are doctors and lawyers and carpenters. I guess they multi-task.
I have been building musical stringed instruments since the 70's. Do I consider myself a luthier? Sure! An amateur luthier. I have never built musical instruments for a living, although occasionally I do sell one. I've never hung out a shingle and solicited work.
I know of some Doctors and Lawyers who have built some very nice instruments in their spare time. I've also known some Doctors and Lawyers who I would not go to in their respective professions. Some professional luthiers do crappy work, and some amateur "hobbyist" builders do excellent work.
Your friend apparently was a novice musical instrument store owner. Perhaps he should have worked in a music store before jumping into the business and buying instruments he could not properly evaluate. You say you evaluated the instruments from pictures. If they are so obviously bad then perhaps your friend suffers from the same faults as these luthiers - not knowing what their limitations are.
Although some professions require credentials to call yourself one, lutherie is not one of them, so buyer beware!
A related question might be - why are you a professional? (honest question - not impugning your statement of fact)

I've made a dozen violins, a couple violas, a 5 string viola (starting another) a cello, 2 archtop guitars, and a 1820 something Stauffer guitar copy. I have several baroque and early guitars started; the 5 string viola, a couple more arch tops, a few more modern guitars, and a couple of violas started.

I like making them. I usually make old ones, or come up with my own design. The 5 string is a 1/2 scale Maggini Cello.

I need to get rid of some; they take up a lot of space: especially the cello. I can play some on the guitar. I would get better if I practiced. I don't play the others at all.

Am I a luthier? I would say so. Am I a good one? My finishes let me down.

_________________
Why be normal?

There’s no thing wrong with wanting to sell your guitars. Sure. Sponsor the next one and a few tools. I just don’t know of many people that go out fishing twice and all the sudden their title is fisherman. If you fish doesn’t necessarily make you a fisherman, the word implies what you do for a living.
But in guitar making people tend to very quickly change their titles.
Just curious why… that’s all.

_________________
Peter M.
Cornerstone Guitars
http://www.cornerstoneukes.com

I think Americans have been building stringed instruments and influenced guitar building enough we should have our own name. Spell check always seems to kick out the French term. I always wonder, am I spelling it wrong.

It made me laugh peterm, up here on Lake Superior we say -- "There are fisherman, and there are catchers of fish!"

Maybe we should have, There are Luthier's, and there are builders of guitars!

_________________
Brian R, Wood Mechanic
N8ZED

I think there is a difference in perception of the distinction between a title and a description; everyone has a different idea of that distinction is and it probably varies wildly depending on the particular term used.

Your example of fisherman highlights this difference. If someone told me they were a fisherman, my first thought would NOT be that they are a professional fisherman. That may be different if I lived on the coast. Here in the Midwest, if someone tells me they are a fisherman, I assume they like to go out and fish (much like if they said they were a hunter).

Some things more heavily imply a profession rather than an activity than others. I'm sure my list would be different than everyone else's here. Carpenter would (to me) imply a profession where woodworker would not. Some would be a toss up and get further questions: artist, painter, baker. . .

_________________
Bryan Bear PMoMC

Take care of your feet, and your feet will take care of you.

When I read 'American' it triggered a thought. Most of us here it seems are in the states but it is a cosmopolitan group. None the les the steel string guitar is an American instrument and in the American spirt of doing things in the land of plenty and the home of the free any man can set up his own shop, start making things, sell them and call his self a professional. Any woman too. In the old world there were guilds, and still are, but there is a certain sense of freedom in the steel string guitar and that has gone back over the pond, to the lower Americas and so on. I think that might have something to do with it.

take my wife (insert Henny Youngman joke here), she took up pottery as a hobby. Later she started selling it. Is she only allowed to call her self a potter after she starts selling? Or can anyone who spins a pottery wheel and makes mugs for friends call themselves a potter.

There just isn't anything out there for craft type work like there is say to be a mechanic or a plumber or something that requires a license that is issued to show people that you are trained in this trade. Luthiery, pottery, basket making, painting and so on are not trades.

You could say it is where your heart is. My daughter is a very good NICU nurse. I say that she is a flower gardener. It is what keeps her sane. I trimmed the outline of the 16 foot or so radiused garden off the deck today. It seemed like carving the 900 mm radius on the back of the 5 string, and sort of like grinding, and sanding the radii on a crankshaft for a punch press. But not ANYTHING like cutting the complex shape, +- .0005/.001 in a hardened steel die, for forging CVT transmission cones. That's what my trade job of setting up, and running a lathe morphed into. Yes it was a skill. Yes it is cool to cut a hardened steel die from 10" diameter to 7" and then turn it into another die with ceramic inserts, and watching the red ribbons of steel fly around.
But it isn't quite the same. That would be more fun if it wasn't always for a hot job!

_________________
Why be normal?

Ken, at a 16’ radius I worry about the garden’s projection.

I say I build stringed instruments. Mostly because I was tired of having to explain that luthier and Lutheran are not the same thing. Well it kind of is a religion, I guess, but that’s for another thread.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

_________________
Insta - https://www.instagram.com/cbcguitars/
Facebook - https://www.facebook.com/cbcguitars

Perhaps we should all be luthierin away in our wood shops instead of arguing lexical semantics.

I had a German roommate for a few months while living in Spain last year, he had recently completed 3 years of luthier training at a school in Hallstatt Austria and was now interning with a number of Spanish builders to better his skills in preparation for his Masters exam. In Austria one needs to pass a multi-day exam (Germany has a similar system in place) in order to become a "master luthier" and legally operate one's business as an instrument maker.

After many discussions with him about this over many pints of beer I strongly believe this to be a superior system to the Wild West mentality of the states. Sure some might decry this as an infringement but look at the state of American luthiers; you'll find some of the most talented, professional, and competent makers operating next to the worst hacks imaginable.

Both the gifted builder and the hack will be operating under the same title and as long as you've got a couple hundred bucks to become a corperation you can legally open your business and do as you please to the detriment of potential clients and the integrity of the craft. The "anyone can do what they want" approach is bad for the consumer who needs to trust various strangers to make an informed choice in hiring the appropriate person rather than the knowledge of a professional certification that demonstrates education and competency. It's also bad for the luthier who now needs to fight to be taken seriously in a market overrun by amateurs who hold themselves in the same regard as the professionals. Yes there are positives to the American approach too but this thread is about controversy after all....

I hate to agree with you but that is SO true!

_________________
Peter M.
Cornerstone Guitars
http://www.cornerstoneukes.com

I had 2 apprentices at the shop. They had to get 2 years of classes in, and many hours in the shop; a couple years worth? Then they were a journeyman. Before classes were available, they needed 8 years before being journeymen. As a journeyman I, and they would be accepted in a union shop. Whether either one would be successful there is another thing. Experience and skill of everyone is varied.

Most (many?) violin repair people come through schools, but the best; and many that go on to become successful makers, or well known restorers; get apprenticeships in a really good shop. A really good, busy shop. There is nothing like doing things over and over, and seeing more instruments in a month than most see in a lifetime. And having a mentor/boss/tyrant over you to point out things that you would never notice.

I don't know if it is the same in guitar shops.

I certainly wouldn't open a shop to be a luthier. or even work in a shop. I do have to fix my mistakes, and they usually don't come out bad; but I don't like the setup part of instruments. It doesn't do anything for me. I like making them, and hearing how they sound. Guitars each sound different. Violins sound like violins. You need someone who knows how to play to find differences. Even then I don't hear them.

They are pretty straightforward to make though.

Then making something different.

_________________
Why be normal?

It seems patently obvious to me that luthier is a professional vocation. Something one does to make a living.

People making guitars in their spare time for pleasure are not luthiers, in the same way that being a keen reader of books on modern history does not make one a historian. My sister spends Saturdays baking delicious cakes for friends and family. She’s a heck of a cook but she is not a chef.

It’s not judgement on the quality of the instruments (or brownies) being produced and I know for a FACT there are amateurs on this forum producing guitars that rival those made by the pros.

Here’s what I think:

1. Building a guitar is hard
2. Building a great guitar is very hard
3. Building many many great guitars, dozens or more a year, and having the marketing skills to sell them fast enough to make a living, AND THEN do it year in, year out for decades - now THAT is something else altogether and something that is totally different to hobby building at even the highest level. It’s something that most hobbyists would run a mile from.

In the repair world it’s the same - doing one top shelf refret is hard. Doing them day in, day out fast enough to keep a commercial shop afloat is taking the skillset to another level. Setup work is the same - anyone can learn to mess around with wrenches and do a good setup. But can you do 10 killer setups in a day while answering the phone and juggling the rest of the responsibilities of your repair shop?

Pay your mortgage off, feed your kids and send them to college with the income from
working with guitars and you’re a luthier.

The American approach seems to be more of a 'free market' approach. That is to say, if I build something and offer it up for sale you can come and look at it and if you like it for the price I am offering then you might buy it. If you look at it and laugh and walk out then I as the maker of said item can either lower the price or do my best to improve myself.

I'm not taking sides here becasue imo either system works just as well.

And again, if I was hiring someone to fix my leaky pipes I'd like to know that he/she is a certified tradesman, more or less as I stated before the same as if I was going to go get my guitar repaired I'd like to know that the shop has at least enough experience, or some sort of certified training, to do it.

But as far as manufactured goods, you either like what you see and want to buy it or not. There will be customers that like the idea that the guitar they are buying is from a journeyed craftsman that has past the standards that the guild requires and they must be willing to pay the price. Then there are others who might take a risk on buying a guitar they think is a good one from someone who's been building guitars in their basement.

It's all up to them and it's all about choices.

I prefer the "Wild West" approach to lutherie.
Doctors, lawyers, engineers and some trades benefit from formal training and credentials awarded by some governing body, but for musical instruments I don't think this is really necessary. One of the finest guitar making companies in the Americas was started by a man who left Saxony to get away from the restrictions placed on people by the Guilds.
I think it is unfortunate that the "Wild West" is disappearing because of government policies.

Would Kevin Ryan be allowed to build and sell guitars if Americans didn't have the freedom to forgo the "training and servitude" the Guilds require?

Few points of clarification:

The European guild system of the 19th century no longer exists, much like Austria-Hungary guilds are a relic of a much different time. CF Martin came to America due to the guild system limiting the number of shops that could operate in a given area, it's the same reason most of the great lute makers like Sellas and Tielke learned their trade in Fussen but wound up in Venice and Hamburg respectively. Again, guilds no longer dictate how many workshops can exist in a given area.

The masters exam is not predicated upon spending half a decade in university or being sent away at 13 to apprentice under a craftsman in a far away village. One need only schedule the exam, if the quality of ones work is satisfactory they shall pass regardless of their education history. I don't know much about Kevin Ryan except that he was an early proponent of CNC in small shop work, if he can cut a perfect V joint (the headstock joint used by Hauser, Lacote, and countless others) with only hand tools in less than 6 hours (among other aspects of the test) he can be certified as a master and legally open his own shop in Austria. You can operate a shop with some limitations without having taken the masters test but as a consumer in Austria why wouldn't you choose someone who's demonstrated basic competency in half a millennia+ of instrument construction as awarded by a trusted institution. If I were spending big bucks for guitar repair or spending a not insignificant amount of money on a commissioned instrument seeing a master diploma in my chosen luthiers shop would be valuable insurance.

I don't know what you mean by "I think it is unfortunate that the "Wild West" is disappearing because of government policies". There are no government policies in place in regard to this or any other creative industry in the US (as far as I know) and the policies in Europe are rather lax when compared to historic precedent (if they exist at all, Spain is fairly lawless although local jurisdictions do give awards to craftsman of renown). If anything the guitar making world is as lawless as ever, self appointed experts are all over instagram, Facebook, and YouTube making dodgy claims that are repeated as dogma. I don't disagree that there is merit to the "come as you are" US approach but for the sake of argument I'm taking a hardline, pro old world, stance in this thread.

I’m a hobby guitar builder who might someday sell some of the guitars I build. I chafe when people use the word “luthier” to describe me, and I don’t use it to describe myself. Doing so could offend those who have actually earned the title, and I would not want to do that.

Titles aside, I don’t think doing something for a living always means you are great at it, and I don’t think doing something just for fun always means you are, relatively speaking, not as good. Skill, experience, and dedication to craft are things both professionals and amateurs develop, some more than others.

Yeah , like my brother in-law's comment when I popped the lid on the case ...." Woah , you built that ? " ..silence.. " Wow ".......Haha eat your heart out Ervin Somogyi ...Now I see what he means .

Hey Peter!!!

I'm in it for the money!!! See I told ya I was not too bright.

Welcome back my friend and nice to see the Cornerstone brand name again too.

I'm still working at repair work with Ann Arbor Guitars part time and Dave now owns 100% of the business. So I go in in the mornings and do a few guitars and go home. Yesterday was a fret dress and set-up and then another Tele for a set-up.

I'll go home and my friends will come over and I will help them with their guitars frequently. Today a friend who is 71 now will bring me a brand new Suhr Tele to be inspected during the acceptance period and then if it's a keeper, and it will be Suhr is exceptional I'll dial it in for him and then we jam some.

So long story short I help people and I get the biggest kick out of doing so. I've studied long and hard, repaired well over 10,000 guitars now and I keep track and I love what I do. I plan on working until I can't.

So for me Lutherie has given me a purpose, as Hemingway might say "a clean, well lit place." Well one out of two ain't bad it is well lit....

And along the way my studio down stairs has benefitted too and is now filled with vintage, point-to-point wired tube amps, guitars from Collings, Suhr, G*bson, Sawdowsky, Fender and PRS and as mentioned I play a lot these days with my friends and none of us have to bring anything to the other's home to jam we are all collectors now.

Went to Northwoods last month which was a great opportunity for folks interested in the the trade to meet folks who have made life long livings being a luthier.

In my experience the folks who do the best in the industry are not on the forums much if at all and they find their niche, put their heads down, run silent run deep even.... and go at it. Some of these folks can do very well.

Looking back I'm glad I walked away from corporate America and took the chance that I did. We made enough money to do pretty well and helped a lot of guitars and people with their goals and dreams.

I still can't sing though......

I've met and spent some time with a number of famous folks such as Robben Ford and his 58 Les Paul and he had a Gold top with him that day too.

Funny thing when I was a kid and fell in love with my Silvertone, red colored acoustic with action high enough to slice hard boiled eggs I never imagined that I would someday become a luthier.

Go figure.

Welcome back Bro!