Official Luthiers Forum!
http://w-ww.luthiersforum.com/forum/

Master Grade Top?
http://w-ww.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10101&t=56091		 Page 1 of 2
Author:  mountain whimsy [ Tue Nov 28, 2023 5:01 pm ]
Post subject:  Master Grade Top?
Hi all. I just received a few tops from one of the standard suppliers (no name yet). A few AAA tops and a Master Grade for a commission build. The AAA's look fine. I'm disappointed with the Master Grade, though, and was wondering your opinions on it. First and foremost, at double the price, I expect a top with no obvious flaws. The one that was sent had an obvious split coming in from the outside edge. The runout on that edge was 2.4" over the 0.19" thick top. I'm OK with some runout at the edges where it will be cut off, but the runout is visible on the flat surface running 2/3 of the way in from the edge (circled in the photo of the face of the board). Supposedly it lays back a bit from that point, but that's a bit of twist and weirdness on at least 50% of the top as far as I can tell. The center seam generally looks OK. Photos below.

So is this Master Grade? Is it acceptable? Would you use it?

Thanks!

-Tony
Author:  doncaparker [ Tue Nov 28, 2023 5:47 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Master Grade Top?
So, here is how these threads tend to go. People will give their opinions of the top, and those could be described as objective observations, but at some point, you will get nudged to identify the supplier. Then it turns into everyone’s views of that supplier overall, including people sticking up for the supplier, others saying negative things about the supplier, etc. it winds up not being so much about the top you were sold.

Personally, if anybody (including the best of suppliers) labels something as master grade, and charges me an extra high price for it, that top had better be visually close to perfect. I buy good to very good tops all the time with small issues, but if I pay extra for master grade, it had better be worth both the hype and the extra money. Your top is not, in my opinion, worthy of either the label or the higher price. But, I have also had extended, polite (and ultimately pointless) discussions with a few suppliers about the accuracy of their descriptions of tops. In other words, I have complained that the wood they sent me did not live up to the description or price. And those discussions got me nowhere other than frustrated, because, in addition to honest disagreements about accuracy and quality, the business practice of over promising and under delivering is something that is hard to give up once a business gets used to doing it. I have had to just learn to only buy tops when I can get photos of the actual pieces of wood being sold, and even then, there is risk. I hope you can have a productive discussion with the supplier. I have had mixed results from those talks, so I try to avoid them by assuming caveat emptor applies.

In summation: beehive beehive beehive
Author:  Hesh [ Tue Nov 28, 2023 6:26 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Master Grade Top?
It's not master grade and far from it. Master grade maybe for a body the size of a Chapman Stick.... Please contact the supplier and ask for an exchange but with pics in advance before you agree or your money back. Maybe this is a mistake on their end and they will make it right, they should. Could be that someone pulled the wrong top or packed the wrong top. Benefit of the doubt ya know but now they should fix it and make you whole again Tony.
Author:  rbuddy [ Tue Nov 28, 2023 6:36 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Master Grade Top?
I agree with Hesh, maybe THAT top was supposed to protect your other ones in the package from shipping damage and your REAL master grade top is still in the mail, I hope.

But yeah, gotta check with the vendor and you should get a 100% refund and all return shipping if required should be the vendors responsibility.

Brian
Author:  mountain whimsy [ Tue Nov 28, 2023 7:03 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Master Grade Top?
Ha! Thanks guys! I did contact the supplier with photos. His response was basically, "The only important place is the center seam, so runout at the edges doesn't matter. The grain looks great and it's not split at the center seam, so it must be great. I produce thousands of tops so I know what makes a good top and you don't." Reluctantly, he agreed to accept the return. Amazing that it will likely cost more for him to have me ship it back than it cost for them to produce. This is direct from the mill with no middle man.

I agree that some suppliers are more interested in getting in a pissing contest over a small item than they are about customer service or building a relationship. I'm sure this supplier sends off pallets of tops to some big builders and they can pick and choose what they consider to be quality and are happy to have some waste. Small volume and hobby builders are willing to pay a premium for quality materials and service so they don't have to question whether to use something. This is the second time that I've gone around the horn with this supplier when ordering a "test run" torrified top that seems to be extra "roasted." I was willing to give them a second chance with this order, but never again.
Author:  jfmckenna [ Tue Nov 28, 2023 7:12 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Master Grade Top?
Looking at almost one full half in your first pic the grain and color are even across and in some circles that is considered master grade.
Author:  doncaparker [ Wed Nov 29, 2023 12:00 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Master Grade Top?
mountain whimsy wrote:
Ha! Thanks guys! I did contact the supplier with photos. His response was basically, "The only important place is the center seam, so runout at the edges doesn't matter. The grain looks great and it's not split at the center seam, so it must be great. I produce thousands of tops so I know what makes a good top and you don't." Reluctantly, he agreed to accept the return. Amazing that it will likely cost more for him to have me ship it back than it cost for them to produce. This is direct from the mill with no middle man.

I agree that some suppliers are more interested in getting in a pissing contest over a small item than they are about customer service or building a relationship. I'm sure this supplier sends off pallets of tops to some big builders and they can pick and choose what they consider to be quality and are happy to have some waste. Small volume and hobby builders are willing to pay a premium for quality materials and service so they don't have to question whether to use something. This is the second time that I've gone around the horn with this supplier when ordering a "test run" torrified top that seems to be extra "roasted." I was willing to give them a second chance with this order, but never again.


Sounds familiar. Sorry to hear it.
Author:  bcombs510 [ Wed Nov 29, 2023 12:38 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Master Grade Top?
mountain whimsy wrote:
The runout on that edge was 2.4" over the 0.19" thick top.


OK, since you closed out with the supplier, and in the spirit of learning… :)

What do these numbers mean? There was runout 2.4” in from the outer edge? Judging by what was circled I don’t think that’s what it means. :)

Brad


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
Author:  A.Hix [ Wed Nov 29, 2023 10:06 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Master Grade Top?
What type of spruce is this? Hard to tell from pics
Author:  Alan Carruth [ Wed Nov 29, 2023 10:12 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Master Grade Top?
The supplier is right, up to a point: runout is mostly a structural issue, and it most important along the center seam, because it leads to more bridge lifting, and more top damage when it does. Often the amount of spiral in the grain increases as the tree ages, so you get little or no run out near the center of the tree, increasing toward the bark edge. Joining along the bark edge makes this more of a problem, but if you can join on the heart edge it's better. Run out does reduce the long-grain stiffness a bit, which might require leaving the top a little thicker.

Acoustically run out introduces asymmetry in the top, which can mean that you need to carve the braces differently on the two sides to get things to balance right.

The OP wrote:
" The runout on that edge was 2.4" over the 0.19" thick top."

and bcombs 510 asked:
"What do these numbers mean? There was runout 2.4” in from the outer edge? "

I believe it's a measure of the angle of the grain relative to the surface: the split runs through a .19" thick top in 2.4" of length out at the edge.

I note that the outside edge has a 'racing stripe' of wood with heavier late wood lines. This could be indicative of a changed loading condition on the tree as it aged, from leaning or sun exposure, which seems to correlate with increasing spiral grain: more run out. It's possible that the worst run out is all along that edge , in which case this is a tempest in a teacup. It might be hard to tell, though.
Author:  Clay S. [ Wed Nov 29, 2023 10:16 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Master Grade Top?
Unfortunately, tops are often graded for cosmetics. That top may have nice color, tight, straight, and vertical grain, but not so great runout. Cosmetically it passes in casual inspection. Under a finish the runout will probably show. Measuring off the monitor the picture (slightly inaccurate?) of the edge crack shows a runout of about 1 in 13 - not something I would use on a high end instrument. I have plenty of "A" grade tops with less runout (and a few "AAA" grade with worse - but very nice cosmetically!)
Good instruments can be made with tops that have runout if carefully done, but the bi-reflectance will show the runout in the finished top.
Author:  bluescreek [ Wed Nov 29, 2023 4:41 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Master Grade Top?
I would like to see better pictures As for the surface you need to thickness this so that is a moot point. I don't like the crack but if it is out of the pattern I don't see an issue. I do agree if you paid more he should have made it more visual appealing
Grading is often more a personal preference
Author:  Clay S. [ Wed Nov 29, 2023 5:37 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Master Grade Top?
Hi Brad,
Here is a discussion on the ANZLF that explains how to measure runout and shows a picture of the bi-reflectance of different amounts of runout: http://www.anzlf.com/viewtopic.php?t=3438
To measure the runout and give a "number" to it, you measure the length required to split the wood from top to bottom and divide it by the thickness. In this case the wood split top to bottom in 2.4" on a .19" thick top. 2.4/.19= 12.63 or about 1 : 12 1/2. Some might express it as 1.5" in 20" as the picture does which shows the relative reflectence.
When I check for runout I cut a small piece off the edge of the top and split it down the middle until it runs out one edge. I then use half the thickness of the top divided into the length of the splinter to find the runout. In the photo below the soundboard was 4mm thick, so splitting it in the middle gave a 2mm splinter at the thick end that ran 110mm on one edge of the soundboard and 72mm on the other edge, giving 1:55 and 1:36 respectively.
Author:  John Arnold [ Sat Dec 02, 2023 7:46 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Master Grade Top?
If there is no runout at the seam, the top will not show bi-reflectance. The seller indicated that was the case with this top.
Runout in a quartersawn board is almost always a result of spiral growth. In that case, the runout will change across the width of the top.
When I was cutting red spruce from split billets, the maximum amount of spiral accepted was 2" in a 2 foot long billet, meaning a grain slope of 1 in 12. Sawing tops parallel to the split at the bark edge (the joining edge) will result in no runout at the seam, and increasing amounts of runout toward the outer edges. The alternate method is to saw parallel to the split in the center of the billet, which will minimize the degree of runout. It essentially halves the slope from a maximum 1 in 12 to 1 in 6. But that will result in some runout at the seam. Note that this second example will produce runout that reverses direction from one edge to the other in each half of the top.
You don't have to split the wood or apply finish to see runout in a rough sawn top. You just need a long light source like a fluorescent tube. Orient the light perpendicular to the grain, and observe the reflected band. With both halves of the top in the same plane and placed together as they will be when joined, the reflected band in each half should line up. If they are offset, then the top will have visible runout when finished. A reflected band that is at an angle rather than straight across is indicative of spiral growth.
Author:  jfrench [ Sat Dec 02, 2023 9:03 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Master Grade Top?
John Arnold wrote:
You don't have to split the wood or apply finish to see runout in a rough sawn top. You just need a long light source like a fluorescent tube. Orient the light perpendicular to the grain, and observe the reflected band. With both halves of the top in the same plane and placed together as they will be when joined, the reflected band in each half should line up. If they are offset, then the top will have visible runout when finished. A reflected band that is at an angle rather than straight across is indicative of spiral growth.


This is a very good tip. Another thing you can do is take a picture of a top with the flash enabled on your phone. The flash will also show a light band across the top from which you can judge the runout.
Author:  bcombs510 [ Sat Dec 02, 2023 10:52 am ]
Post subject:  Master Grade Top?
John / Josh / Alan / Clay,

I appreciate you sharing this information. This is an area where I have not given enough focus. I often end up with harlequin tops, etc… because of it.

Sadly, what I have done for the most part is painstakingly preserved the outline drawn by the supplier, if there is one, and joining the plates accordingly.

I will use these techniques going forward to make informed decisions. I have a huge stake of AA tops so a lot to practice on. :)

Brad


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
Author:  Clay S. [ Sun Dec 03, 2023 10:23 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Master Grade Top?
John Arnold made some very good points.
Depending on how a board is sawn, runout can vary from edge to edge. That is why I check the runout on both edges of the plates and join the top on the edges where the runout is the least, irrespective of the width of the grain lines.
He also mentions checking for runout using the non destructive method of using a fluorescent light for checking runout. For those who specify "no runout" when buying tops that sounds like a very good way to check, without causing harm to something you may want to return to the seller. I have never "sent back" tops, but I've never paid "Master Grade" prices for anything.
When I do the splinter test it is to give me a "number". I cut the test pieces from opposite edges of opposite plates using a thin kerf blade to minimize the loss of available width, but that usually doesn't matter.
Runout is something that is not immediately obvious and is only one of the factors that determine the quality of soundboard material,
but in the past few years has become a "Thing" with the pseudo-cognoscente of the buying public. Many fine instruments have been built with tops that show some runout.
Author:  Mike_P [ Sun Dec 03, 2023 1:17 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Master Grade Top?
runout in its fullness is a difficult concept to fully grasp until one does and it becomes obvious.

I think it's hard for many people to realize that it becomes near impossible to get a piece of wood with no runout because of twisting of the tree. a clue for me was realizing bear claw is very localized runout.

in a nutshell runout is far more than a piece of wood being improperly cut and in fact, as noted, it can be impossible to yield a piece with absolutely no runout with a given log of wood.

unfortunately if one is dealing with a person who has too much $ for his/her own good then as a supplier of what it is they want you're kind of stuck when trying to make them satisfied even if it means using a top that while it looks perfect may sound like cr@p
Author:  A.Hix [ Mon Dec 04, 2023 10:43 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Master Grade Top?
As John Arnold just described, you can see the degree of runout from the reflection of a light source, as is evident in this pic of one of my red spruce tops. You can see how the light reflection is an even band across the width of the top.
I often get asked why I cut my tops in the "coffin" shape, there are several reasons, but one is because I have already tested the degree of runout on my tops, and I cut them like this so the best alignment is already situated.
Author:  jfmckenna [ Mon Dec 04, 2023 11:04 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Master Grade Top?
THAT is lovely top.

I've got a few Red Spruce tops that are that good saved for a special occasion. The problem with the coffin shape for many builders is that they cannot do deflection or acoustic testing on the tops to target top thickness. I would think that the outline drawing perhaps with an explanation would suffice.
Author:  meddlingfool [ Mon Dec 04, 2023 11:18 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Master Grade Top?
Exactly. I much prefer having the full panels.
Author:  bcombs510 [ Mon Dec 04, 2023 11:45 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Master Grade Top?
That’s a good point m, yeah it would need to be the full panel.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
Author:  A.Hix [ Mon Dec 04, 2023 3:07 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Master Grade Top?
Like I said, there are several reasons for the coffin shape, situating the tops correctly in reference to the runout is only one reason. My largest customer for my red spruce tops, who buys many hundreds per order actually requires this to be done as one of their specs.
Author:  jfmckenna [ Mon Dec 04, 2023 4:58 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Master Grade Top?
That way there is no mistaken it, makes sense.
Author:  J De Rocher [ Mon Dec 04, 2023 5:45 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Master Grade Top?
I'm wondering, has anyone determined a deflection number for a rectangular top and then cut it to a "coffin" or similar shape and see how much difference it actually makes in the deflection value?
Page 1 of 2 All times are UTC - 5 hours
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group
http://www.phpbb.com/