David, Slotted? Never built with them. I got a reputation to protect here!
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| Bridge Pin Slant? http://w-ww.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10101&t=56220 |
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| Author: | dofthesea [ Mon Jan 15, 2024 2:53 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Bridge Pin Slant? |
What is everyone's preferred bridge pin slant? 3 or 5? or is it different then what I see advertised? Going to have a mass order made up so curios |
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| Author: | John Arnold [ Mon Jan 15, 2024 5:07 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Bridge Pin Slant? |
I only use 5 degree pins. No one has convinced me that 3 degree is better, especially when you consider that they will wedge tighter, making them more difficult to remove. Sent from my SM-G950U1 using Tapatalk |
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| Author: | Hesh [ Mon Jan 15, 2024 5:25 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Bridge Pin Slant? |
If you mean the degree of taper 3 degree but 3 degree's value over 5 degree is really for unslotted pins. This was drawn out and posted here on the OLF long ago and Mario P. was a big advocate of 3 degree, unslotted pins. Dave Collins is too for how the bridge plate does not get chewed on like it does with a slotted pin. The advent of cheap plastics made the slotted, mass produced pin possible and it eliminated, so they thought... the need for semi-skilled labor to slot the bridge, top and plate prior to the invention of slotted pins. But the slot let the string ball sit on the edge of the pin hole on the bridge plate and they chew it up over time doing bridge plate damage. We have never seen bridge plate damage from unslotted pins. We have had 1800's examples of unslotted pins with zero bridge plate wear or damage. So what's the difference between 5 and 3 degree? Not much but the 3 degree will push the string ball ever so slightly more onto the bridge plate and not the edge of the pin hole on the bridge plate where damage can occur. It's a very small difference. It''s a nit until you have to pay someone because your bridge pin holes have damaged the bridge plate splintering material and letting the string balls migrate upward through the plate and top and even help lift a bridge. One of the worst example of this are 70's Guilds with cheap, plastic, slotted pins that were so cheap they bent. The bridge plates on these guitars are almost always damaged now from the string balls chewing the bridge plate and the pin bending out of the way to let it happen. So to summarize and try to be to the point - little difference in value between 5 and 3 degree taper, big difference in value between unslotted and slotted. I had my pins made for me and went with 3 degree, unslotted pins and my bridge plates look like the day I installed them no pin hole damage and some of mine have been gigging for 18 years now. Now I recognize that 3 degree are hard to find let alone unslotted so that's why I had mine made and I also had mine made of BRW and African Blackwood. I also had matching end pins made.... unslotted. Lastly I don't find a properly fitted bridge pin hard to remove in either 3 or 5 degrees. Pins need to be fitted and that included filing the groves for the wrapped part of the string correctly too. Once that is done and it always should be done I've never found either taper to be harder than the other to remove. |
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| Author: | Pat Foster [ Mon Jan 15, 2024 5:30 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Bridge Pin Slant? |
5° here. Like John said, they don't get so stuck. Unslotted for reasons Hesh gave. I worked on a D-28 that had the bridge pin holes so gouged, the ball ends of the strings were up against the underside of the bridge. |
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| Author: | Hesh [ Mon Jan 15, 2024 5:39 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Bridge Pin Slant? |
Pat Foster wrote: 5° here. Like John said, they don't get so stuck. Unslotted for reasons Hesh gave. I worked on a D-28 that had the bridge pin holes so gouged, the ball ends of the strings were up against the underside of the bridge. Yeah that's what happens and the pin holes once chewed up like that can connect sideways with each other creating a crease pushing upwards and that can lift a bridge and often does. People sometimes try strings that need to be refitted such as Tomastic with the very thick, cloth windings and since they don't get their pins fitted they force things and pins get stuck. Pins also get stuck, cheap pins because of deformation. |
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| Author: | SteveSmith [ Mon Jan 15, 2024 5:40 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Bridge Pin Slant? |
5 degree unslotted. Steve |
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| Author: | dofthesea [ Mon Jan 15, 2024 8:34 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Bridge Pin Slant? |
Yep I'm already on board with unslotted, Hesh I remember taking your fretting class and hearing both you and David unleash a slew of profanity towards slotted pins. Haha so I thought to myself take note and follow the masters lol Uncle Pat I remember having this discussion with you as well about a decade ago. Only slotted. Well it appears that slotted pins are strictly for the cheap factories. Def a no no. I have a lot of beautiful Tonewood blocks that I would love to have made into bridge/end pins lets hope David Warther is still making them or Gurian will use customer supplied wood |
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| Author: | Pat Foster [ Mon Jan 15, 2024 9:02 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Bridge Pin Slant? |
David, Slotted? Never built with them. I got a reputation to protect here!
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| Author: | Clay S. [ Mon Jan 15, 2024 9:50 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Bridge Pin Slant? |
I use the cheap plastic pins, but superglue plastic into the slots and notch the bridge so the ball ends are under the hardwood plate. I've never worried about the taper but made a reamer to match it from the tang end of a file. |
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| Author: | Hesh [ Tue Jan 16, 2024 5:07 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Bridge Pin Slant? |
dofthesea wrote: Yep I'm already on board with unslotted, Hesh I remember taking your fretting class and hearing both you and David unleash a slew of profanity towards slotted pins. Haha so I thought to myself take note and follow the masters lol Uncle Pat I remember having this discussion with you as well about a decade ago. Only slotted. Well it appears that slotted pins are strictly for the cheap factories. Def a no no. I have a lot of beautiful Tonewood blocks that I would love to have made into bridge/end pins lets hope David Warther is still making them or Gurian will use customer supplied wood  Yeah you know and I do swear a lot....
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| Author: | Hesh [ Tue Jan 16, 2024 5:13 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Bridge Pin Slant? |
Just wanted to add one more thing if I may please, well two more. What's really important if you appreciate what I call "SQ" for serviceability quotient is going with unslotted pins. 95% of the value of 3 degree, unslotted pins is likely that they are unslotted. The last 5% in my opinion and experience can be had with a 3 degree taper. Or, in other words it's a big improvement to simply go unslotted even at 5 degrees since that's all we can find on the shelves. Lastly pins in the 1800's were often not tapered at all they were straight up and down. As described above they, the pins were of course unslotted and instead the Luthier would slot the bridge, top and plate. As such once tuned to pitch you could pull the pins and the strings would stay in place. |
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| Author: | dofthesea [ Tue Jan 16, 2024 10:00 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Bridge Pin Slant? |
Uncle Pat a total mistype. Sorry meant to type unslotted. |
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| Author: | rbuddy [ Tue Jan 16, 2024 12:23 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Bridge Pin Slant? |
I learned pretty quickly that with cheaper pins I bought I needed 6 sets to find 6 matching pins! I go through the pains of making them interchangeable by ensuring they fit any hole. Some looked to be turned from green wood, warped, bent AND not uniformly sized. My preference has been for 3 degree taper mostly because they were longer and with my building style my bridges and bride plates are thicker and the xtra length was beneficial. I found LMII and StewMac to deliver quality uniform pins. This thread made me look around for options. Now LMII is off the table and to my surprise SM no longer offers 3 degree pins and bone has jumped to about $50 a set! Gurian had pretty much nothing to offer for web order. Maybe folks could offer info on what size/taper they like as well as current good sources for quality pins. Thanks |
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| Author: | bobgramann [ Tue Jan 16, 2024 12:32 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Bridge Pin Slant? |
Gurian makes them for you on order. Contact them and tell them what you want. You might have to buy a gross of them, but the price for the gross won’t hurt very much. |
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| Author: | dofthesea [ Tue Jan 16, 2024 2:14 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Bridge Pin Slant? |
So I found David W on https://guitarpartsandmore.com. he has lightning fast response time. I asked him if he made Ebony pins and or if I could have some made. His response was we don't make Ebony pins as Bone has superior tone. Which kind of cracked me up. I disn't ask him for advice on which bridge pin sounds better. It's annoying when a vendor starts stating which wood or material is going to sound better. Anyhoot. If you're looking for bone pins then check out the link. |
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| Author: | dofthesea [ Tue Jan 16, 2024 2:14 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Bridge Pin Slant? |
Im going to have some 5 degrees made up with Gurian. let me know if anyone wants to go in on the order. |
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| Author: | Hesh [ Tue Jan 16, 2024 5:17 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Bridge Pin Slant? |
dofthesea wrote: So I found David W on https://guitarpartsandmore.com. he has lightning fast response time. I asked him if he made Ebony pins and or if I could have some made. His response was we don't make Ebony pins as Bone has superior tone. Which kind of cracked me up. I disn't ask him for advice on which bridge pin sounds better. It's annoying when a vendor starts stating which wood or material is going to sound better. Anyhoot. If you're looking for bone pins then check out the link. https://www.stewmac.com/parts-and-hardware/endpins-and-bridge-pins/power-pins-2.0/?mtm_source=google&mtm_medium=cpc&mtm_campaign=%7C+GOO+%7C+SHOP+%7C+NBR+%7C+AllProductsUSA&gad_source=1&gclid=CjwKCAiA75itBhA6EiwAkho9e2OhBI7hC8WcUJcIwKeUN3JqV-KNVFvojg4IaQ2DdU7EnF_P3PTtaBoCj_IQAvD_BwE  I do try to be supportive of fellow industry participants and I do love StewMac having bought and built every amp kit they sell. So I won't point out that two of three of these pins finish wise are no longer available....  But pins do not create tone the change in mass more or less over the sweet spot of the top may, may... change the tone of a specific instrument depending on how it's built and if it needed more or less mass for that player over the sweet spot. Lots of variable here. All my guitars came with 3 degree, unslotted, BRW pins. Did they sound better? Heck no they were simply a visual feature with BRW and the most serviceable choice I could have made for my guitars that would help take them to a very old age without bridge plate damage that's all. I never marketed my pins as for tone but as for scarcity and uniqueness and serviceability. Using unslotted pins is a very good idea just be sure to advise clients of what you did and why so they don't think they are upgrading later on and purchase some of those Bone pins with slots that sound better LOL..... |
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| Author: | dofthesea [ Tue Jan 16, 2024 6:19 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Bridge Pin Slant? |
Hesh I was cracking up about his response about tone with the bone pins. I almost replied with a tone lesson response lol But decided against it. I figure hey he can think what ever he wants , He aint building my next instrument . |
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| Author: | John Arnold [ Tue Jan 16, 2024 7:41 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Bridge Pin Slant? |
Bone pins are not my favorite, simply because of the weight. Sent from my SM-G950U1 using Tapatalk |
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| Author: | Hesh [ Thu Jan 18, 2024 5:27 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Bridge Pin Slant? |
John Arnold wrote: Bone pins are not my favorite, simply because of the weight. Sent from my SM-G950U1 using Tapatalk Mine either for the same reason they are heavy! I'll add that if someone commits the cardinal sin and uses a slotted pin.....      bone pins can be brittle and break in the slot area while pushing a string ball home. I know I've done it.... 
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| Author: | Woodie G [ Thu Jan 18, 2024 11:03 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Bridge Pin Slant? |
Hesh wrote: So what's the difference between 5 and 3 degree? Not much but the 3 degree will push the string ball ever so slightly more onto the bridge plate and not the edge of the pin hole on the bridge plate where damage can occur. It's a very small difference. This is a very accurate statement. The difference Mr. Breakstone cited is about 0.003", or just under the thickness of a sheet of copier paper PROVIDED the string channel depth is not much more than string diameter at the underside of the bridge plate. In reality, I have never seen a properly slotted bridge that would not hold a string at tension with pin removed, so I'm not certain I see a difference in plate wear that would not be lost in the variables of string ball design and orientation; builder care in drilling, tapering, and slotting; and inherent characteristics of the plate material. For my work, the most consistently milled pins in broadest range of materials at reasonable prices are the StewMac pins, which come at a standard 5 degree angle. Antique Acoustics are a close second, and I prefer their red-eye pins over SM's, but triple the cost of the SM stuff. |
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| Author: | Terence Kennedy [ Sun Jan 21, 2024 12:14 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Bridge Pin Slant? |
Five degree unslotted for me. I always thought the main way different materials for bridge pins affected the tone was the weight. I have absolutely no scientific data th back that up. Seems like I usually wind up with Ebony or Ivoroid mainly for looks. |
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| Author: | Colin North [ Sun Jan 21, 2024 5:28 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Bridge Pin Slant? |
Has anyone experienced a problem getting the ball ends through the bottom of the pin holes when reamed with a 5 degree taper? |
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| Author: | SteveSmith [ Sun Jan 21, 2024 6:28 am ] |
| Post subject: | Bridge Pin Slant? |
Colin North wrote: Has anyone experienced a problem getting the ball ends through the bottom of the pin holes when reamed with a 5 degree taper? I haven’t. I’ve used Waverly 5 degree unslotted pins for years. They are expensive but they have always been high quality and very consistent in size. I drill a 3/16” hole before reaming so the final hole is always at least that big. Steve |
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| Author: | John Arnold [ Sun Jan 21, 2024 5:27 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Bridge Pin Slant? |
Yes. Slotting the bridge helps, but there can still be problems with the first and second strings. I mainly use D'Addario strings with rounded edges on the balls. Those usually pass with no issues. |
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