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| Author: | banjopicks [ Wed May 22, 2024 5:26 am ] |
| Post subject: | Neck set. |
I'm getting ready to install my neck and I want to get it right. I haven't made the bridge yet. This is a dreadnought. I'm thinking about 1/16" above the bridge thickness. The frets are in so the measurement will be made with a straight edge riding on the frets. |
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| Author: | bcombs510 [ Wed May 22, 2024 1:34 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Neck set. |
Seems right to me. What is the crown height? Regardless, .0625” seems fine considering medium is .04 - .05. Brad Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro |
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| Author: | banjopicks [ Wed May 22, 2024 2:54 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Neck set. |
I'd rather err on the high side. |
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| Author: | banjopicks [ Wed May 22, 2024 2:59 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Neck set. |
bcombs510 wrote: Seems right to me. What is the crown height? Regardless, .0625” seems fine considering medium is .04 - .05. Brad Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro I'm not sure I know what you're asking "crown height" ? |
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| Author: | bcombs510 [ Wed May 22, 2024 3:09 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Neck set. |
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| Author: | Terence Kennedy [ Wed May 22, 2024 3:31 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Neck set. |
Is the neck attachment bolt on or dovetail? Fretboard extension glued? One thing you can do to check movement under tension is to clamp a well fitted dovetail or bolt on your neck if that type, clamp the extension, and then support the headstock and add about 12 lbs to the upper bout. Does not mimic the bridge rising a bit but I have found it to be pretty accurate as to whether you are in the ballpark with a neck set or reset. Probably most accurate with the truss rod adjusted and the frets reasonably level. For my bolt on necks 1/16” above the bridge with no tension works pretty well. |
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| Author: | Mark Mc [ Wed May 22, 2024 3:48 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Neck set. |
Brad might be figuring that you are yet to do the fret dressing and that the fret height might come down a bit? Or maybe he usually does this measurement from the fingerboard plane without frets, and is adjusting for your fret height? I do it like you, with a fretted board at this stage. I tend to set it a bit higher than the 1/16th that you mention. My soundboards are fairly lightly braced and I expect a bit more bridge lift and rotation under string tension than you are accounting for there. Your measurements are probably right for doing a neck reset on a factory made guitar (i.e. rather heavily braced). But it is always a guess! This is where I always feel pleased that I am building with a bolt-on neck. You have wriggle room from the fact that you haven't made and attached the bridge yet. You probably know that at the Martin factory they have pre-made bridges in three different thicknesses, for exactly this reason. You can choose a fatter or thinner bridge (within reason) to get the saddle height and break angle into the right ballpark after the neck has been glued in. |
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| Author: | bcombs510 [ Wed May 22, 2024 4:35 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Neck set. |
Good call, I didn’t catch the bridge is not made yet. What I shoot for is the straight edge is just clearing the bridge when placed on the fretboard surface (non-fretted). My expectation for a fretted board would be the straight edge is right around that 1/16” that Hutch mentioned if the fret crown height was say .05”. Hope I didn’t confuse you.  Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro |
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| Author: | banjopicks [ Thu May 23, 2024 5:17 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Neck set. |
Mark Mc wrote: Brad might be figuring that you are yet to do the fret dressing and that the fret height might come down a bit? Or maybe he usually does this measurement from the fingerboard plane without frets, and is adjusting for your fret height? I do it like you, with a fretted board at this stage. I tend to set it a bit higher than the 1/16th that you mention. My soundboards are fairly lightly braced and I expect a bit more bridge lift and rotation under string tension than you are accounting for there. Your measurements are probably right for doing a neck reset on a factory made guitar (i.e. rather heavily braced). But it is always a guess! This is where I always feel pleased that I am building with a bolt-on neck. You have wriggle room from the fact that you haven't made and attached the bridge yet. You probably know that at the Martin factory they have pre-made bridges in three different thicknesses, for exactly this reason. You can choose a fatter or thinner bridge (within reason) to get the saddle height and break angle into the right ballpark after the neck has been glued in. Fatter or thinner bridges, I never would have thought to that as I always though the bridge needed to be correctly sized according to plan dimensions. This is a dovetail neck and I'm really hoping to set it right the first time. I haven't had good luck in the past. Maybe I should shoot for 1/8" above. This will be my last dovetail neck. #2 is already cut for mortise and tenon bolt on. #3 is only in my mind and I plan to do a butt joint. I'll get back to this next week when we get back from glamping. |
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| Author: | meddlingfool [ Thu May 23, 2024 12:34 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Neck set. |
Having to use varying bridge heights is not a sign of victory over process control but a concession to a lack of it, yet still the most pragmatic solution in some situation. Having an easily adjustable neck joint is much better. I think you will find the bolt on butt joint to be real nifty… |
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| Author: | bftobin [ Fri May 24, 2024 10:13 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Neck set. |
I've heard that C.F. Martin has three different thicknesses of bridges, because the neck angle isn't always exact. I have a fret board with a fret at the third and fourteenth fret that I use to check that neck angle. Some depend on the (theoretical) mathematics, but I'm not very good with that. I've always said there are three kinds of people in this world, those that are good at math and those who aren't. Brent |
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| Author: | Hesh [ Sat May 25, 2024 8:58 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Neck set. |
I go a little less and want a straight edge on a fretted neck with a super straight neck (truss rod) to come into the bridge slightly over the bridge 1/2 the height of my frets. So for 0.040ish frets I want to see that straight edge about 0.020" above the bridge top. An over set neck is in my view more of a problem than an underset neck so be careful to not be too high over the bridge with the straight edge. Remember tops do pull up a bit which is very little in my experience but they shrink back sure as shootin over time more requiring more saddle in time. More saddle in time and an over set neck is a bad combination ending up in saddles too tall and the strings too high off the sound board stressing the entire structure especially the back edge of the bridge. |
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| Author: | SteveSmith [ Sat May 25, 2024 9:38 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Neck set. |
Hesh wrote: I go a little less and want a straight edge on a fretted neck with a super straight neck (truss rod) to come into the bridge slightly over the bridge 1/2 the height of my frets. So for 0.040ish frets I want to see that straight edge about 0.020" above the bridge top. .... ... I do similar but I don't measure it, I just make sure the straight edge is just barely above the bridge so 0.020" sounds about right. I really want the bridge to come out at 3/8" in the center with a 1/8" saddle exposure so I get the ~1/2" string height over the top. I think that really gives me the best sound on my guitar. Strings too high seems to make it harsh sounding and too low kills the volume. |
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| Author: | Pat Foster [ Sat May 25, 2024 10:52 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Neck set. |
meddlingfool wrote: Having to use varying bridge heights is not a sign of victory over process control but a concession to a lack of it, yet still the most pragmatic solution in some situation. Having an easily adjustable neck joint is much better. I think you will find the bolt on butt joint to be real nifty… This ^. My "foot on a rock" is 1/2" string height above the top. That way, I get consistent torque on the tops; one less variable. |
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| Author: | bcombs510 [ Sat May 25, 2024 5:53 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Neck set. |
SteveSmith wrote: Hesh wrote: I go a little less and want a straight edge on a fretted neck with a super straight neck (truss rod) to come into the bridge slightly over the bridge 1/2 the height of my frets. So for 0.040ish frets I want to see that straight edge about 0.020" above the bridge top. .... ... I do similar but I don't measure it, I just make sure the straight edge is just barely above the bridge so 0.020" sounds about right. I really want the bridge to come out at 3/8" in the center with a 1/8" saddle exposure so I get the ~1/2" string height over the top. I think that really gives me the best sound on my guitar. Strings too high seems to make it harsh sounding and too low kills the volume. I learned a bunch here… primarily that I’ve never changed the math I use to set the neck since my first instrument. I’m undoubtedly building with lighter bracing now and so it might be time to reevaluate. I too build with a target of 1/2” string height. I don’t always get to exactly 1/2” and not taking top rise into account is probably why. I build with 1/4” fretboard, 3/8” bridge and 1/8” saddle height. When setting the neck angle I use a +.125” set back using the LuthierTool jig. This usually lands in the 1.2-1.3 degree area. Any of that sound out of whack? Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro |
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| Author: | SteveSmith [ Sat May 25, 2024 6:20 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Neck set. |
Don't know about the set back on the Luthier Tool jig otherwise I use the same 1/4” fretboard, 3/8” bridge and 1/8” saddle height. I don't like building necks so I get them from Andy Birko, I have them cut at 1.5 degrees. The last two guitars I made came out with string height at 0.46" and 0.48" so the tops probably came up a bit more than I was expecting. I use Red Spruce for my tops typically 0.095 - 0.100", X braces are scalloped and light enough so the top resonates the way I want. I do not brace really light, I tried that on a couple (a size 0 and a 000) and they ended up kind of dead sounding - they're on a shelf to get retopped someday if I don't just burn them. |
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| Author: | Terence Kennedy [ Sat May 25, 2024 9:21 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Neck set. |
It really helps if you can see your guitars back in a year or more to see how much they settle in the first 6-12 months with your particular bracing and neck attachment system. My experience with my particular instruments has been that if I start out with a perfect neck set for a 1/8" saddle out of the gate it may require a tweek of the neck set for optimal setup a year later. I overshoot a bit initially with a slightly higher saddle. I know that Mark Blanchard used to ship new guitars with a thin shim under the saddle so it could be removed as the guitar settled in. If you find your guitars don't settle at all or very little then a straight edge just clearing the bridge initially under string tension would be appropriate. |
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| Author: | SteveSmith [ Sun May 26, 2024 4:21 am ] |
| Post subject: | Neck set. |
Makes sense. Looks like I need to set mine a bit more. I’ll try 0.050” clearance over the bridge and see if that gets me there. Like Brad, I had kind of picked a number and then just kept doing the same thing. Results were not bad but could be just a bit better. |
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| Author: | Hesh [ Sun May 26, 2024 5:23 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Neck set. |
SteveSmith wrote: Hesh wrote: I go a little less and want a straight edge on a fretted neck with a super straight neck (truss rod) to come into the bridge slightly over the bridge 1/2 the height of my frets. So for 0.040ish frets I want to see that straight edge about 0.020" above the bridge top. .... ... I do similar but I don't measure it, I just make sure the straight edge is just barely above the bridge so 0.020" sounds about right. I really want the bridge to come out at 3/8" in the center with a 1/8" saddle exposure so I get the ~1/2" string height over the top. I think that really gives me the best sound on my guitar. Strings too high seems to make it harsh sounding and too low kills the volume. Perfect and this is excellent advice Steve you tied it all together too. You know too since this came up about a week ago here this is yet another example "but I don't measure it" where Lutherie is often, often a combination of feel and experience, the "art" side if you will and not requiring a specific number. There is room for both in the trade, for sure. |
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| Author: | Hesh [ Sun May 26, 2024 5:25 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Neck set. |
bcombs510 wrote: SteveSmith wrote: Hesh wrote: I go a little less and want a straight edge on a fretted neck with a super straight neck (truss rod) to come into the bridge slightly over the bridge 1/2 the height of my frets. So for 0.040ish frets I want to see that straight edge about 0.020" above the bridge top. .... ... I do similar but I don't measure it, I just make sure the straight edge is just barely above the bridge so 0.020" sounds about right. I really want the bridge to come out at 3/8" in the center with a 1/8" saddle exposure so I get the ~1/2" string height over the top. I think that really gives me the best sound on my guitar. Strings too high seems to make it harsh sounding and too low kills the volume. I learned a bunch here… primarily that I’ve never changed the math I use to set the neck since my first instrument. I’m undoubtedly building with lighter bracing now and so it might be time to reevaluate. I too build with a target of 1/2” string height. I don’t always get to exactly 1/2” and not taking top rise into account is probably why. I build with 1/4” fretboard, 3/8” bridge and 1/8” saddle height. When setting the neck angle I use a +.125” set back using the LuthierTool jig. This usually lands in the 1.2-1.3 degree area. Any of that sound out of whack? Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro Nope sounds good to me but what really matters Brad are results which are the ultimate goal. If you end up with strings 1/2" over the sound board with a well set-up instrument that could be set-up well you are golden
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