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http://w-ww.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10101&t=56659		 Page 1 of 1
Author:  gregorio [ Sun Jun 30, 2024 7:10 am ]
Post subject:  Finishing
Saw this video featuring a new finish.

Thought i would link it here for the seasoned finishers to comment on.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HiJdtJeO0JQ
Author:  bcombs510 [ Sun Jun 30, 2024 11:32 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Finishing
Thanks for sharing it. I think Ed looked into this a while back as well? The SDS says “monomer blend” which doesn’t help me with what it actually is. If you contact the company maybe try to find out what exactly it is.

I almost turned off the video because he said “game changer” but then immediately qualified it. :)

I use the Cardinal product but I’m not super wild about the reducer needed to spray using the schedule I like to use. It is what it is, I have the spray booth setup to accommodate it, so it’s fine.


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Author:  joe white [ Sun Jun 30, 2024 1:23 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Finishing
Five hundred bucks a gallon. Hmmmm. It looks interesting and I might contact them and do some testing with it. I like that it is UV but I'm still leary of using a UV product for pore filling.
Author:  SkinnyJim [ Sun Jun 30, 2024 1:38 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Finishing
Why is it necessary to use a reduced with Cardinal . Maybe because humidity?
Author:  bcombs510 [ Sun Jun 30, 2024 1:57 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Finishing
SkinnyJim wrote:
Why is it necessary to use a reduced with Cardinal . Maybe because humidity?

The Cardinal UV Cured Polyester & Polyurethane is pretty high solids out of the can (65%) and there is a lot of solvent pop / cratering that happens because the surface gels before the solvent has escaped.

There are things you can do for this like make sure there is no draft flowing over the finish while it’s flashing off, spraying in the right temps, etc… but any time I sprayed right out of the can it was a crap shoot.

Adding about 10-15% medium reducer gives the ability to spray without building too fast and seems to solve the cratering / pop.

Open to ideas if you have them of other ways to address it! Thanks!

Brad


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Author:  bcombs510 [ Sun Jun 30, 2024 2:05 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Finishing
joe white wrote:
Five hundred bucks a gallon. Hmmmm. It looks interesting and I might contact them and do some testing with it. I like that it is UV but I'm still leary of using a UV product for pore filling.

Joe, I’ve used both the Simtec & Cardinal UV cured porefill. I try to put it on super dry / thin with 3-4 layers to get a nice porefill. I scuff between with maroon scotchbrite. I use the Etore squeegee and remove so it’s very dry. The video below will help to see it.

Here is a video - https://youtu.be/AZB9C-MiZ2w?si=yHfW-biMvVa522wF

Have you had issues with UV cured porefill not getting cured?

I spray isolante as a base coat first. Solvent based isolante and let it cure over night.

Brad


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Author:  DennisK [ Sun Jun 30, 2024 2:18 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Finishing
The most interesting thing I saw on that video was a comment from someone pointing out that 3D printer UV resin is super cheap. Might be a good alternative for pore filling.
Author:  Kbore [ Sun Jun 30, 2024 2:56 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Finishing
Very interesting product.
From the website https://mywoodcutters.com/CleanArmorFAQ/#FAQ04 :

    Is UV light a requirement for this product to cure? If not, what is the dry time under normal LED lights in a shop under normal conditions?

    Yes, a dedicated UV light with a frequency of 385nm is a must to cure Clean Armor products. Any other LED lights will take no effect as you can apply these finishes in your shop under normal (including ED) interior lights. If you mostly work with small projects that are easy to carry, you can apply the finish in your shop and then take the projects outside to cure as normal daylight (even on cloudy days) will cure the products within 2 minutes.

Not too confident in the application of this finish to acoustic guitars given that Mohawk/ Behlen Stringed Instrument Lacquer is promoted to "provide superior flexibility" for stringed instruments*. Someone should check this out for us laughing6-hehe


*https://www.mohawkconsumerproducts.com/blog/2016/3/15/behlen-guitar-finishing-options/
Author:  meddlingfool [ Sun Jun 30, 2024 10:36 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Finishing
Slightly different product number than I was playing with, but same brand.

I love the porefill they offer. I just ran out of time when I was doing test panels but I still have a few pints of porefill and topcoat.

I didn’t have much luck with the topcoat, but I didn’t have a lot of time to try, and it’s been a long time since I’ve done gloss coated guitars, no one orders them since I started offering a cheaper guitar line. I was also sanding by hand.

That said…If the product itself wears well, I think it would be fairly simple to figure out how to use it properly. With a film thickness gauge like Brad has, I don’t see how you couldn’t get up to speed pretty easily.

It does smell a little funny so even wiping on I would still use ventilation and a respirator.

It did not kick off under my flouro shop lights, and did indeed cure fully in minutes under sunlight, maybe a few minutes longer on an overcast day.

I loved that you could work it to satisfaction before curing it rather than racing time like with epoxy. Loved being able to completely porefill a test panel ready for topcoat in an hour.

Anyway, I think the product line is certainly worth taking into consideration, and hopefully once I’m back up and running I’ll have time to get back to it…
Author:  meddlingfool [ Sun Jun 30, 2024 10:37 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Finishing
Also I did some torture tests by freezing test panels than throwing them in the sun, cross hatch rip tests etc and it passed.
Author:  joe white [ Mon Jul 01, 2024 8:15 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Finishing
bcombs510 wrote:
joe white wrote:
Five hundred bucks a gallon. Hmmmm. It looks interesting and I might contact them and do some testing with it. I like that it is UV but I'm still leary of using a UV product for pore filling.

Joe,

Have you had issues with UV cured porefill not getting cured?

I spray isolante as a base coat first. Solvent based isolante and let it cure over night.

Brad


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Brad, I have not had issues but I have not used UV pore fill on any instruments, only test panels. What concerns me is the possibility of uncured UV pore fill deep within a "tubular" type of pore that the UV cannot reach. Uncured UV within a pore can eventually cause some sinking, heaving or even delamination. A large guitar manufacturer had this problem occur on a their guitar's and a very well known custom builder as well. It led to many warranty claims for both. The frustrating thing about that failure is it doesn't migrate to the surface right away so the builder's have several to hundreds or more guitars out in the world that may or may not fail.

What you are doing by isolating first is most likely eliminating the risk of such a failure. One builder I talk with uses epoxy first as a trusted deep pore fill before the UV as the final fill. This also seems to eliminate the possibility of a pore fill failure.

I'm likely over cautious but since I deal with instruments that I didn't build, I like to err on the side of caution.

I have a very trusted and knowledgeable wood finish "chemistry" tech that I have worked with for years that I forwarded the video of the UV stuff linked above, he found it interesting and is going to look into it and tell me what he finds.
Author:  bcombs510 [ Mon Jul 01, 2024 9:59 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Finishing
Thanks a lot for the feedback, Joe.

If you learn anything interesting from the manufacturer please share. Seems like a never ending quest when it comes to finishing. I’m sure you know better than anyone. :)


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