Official Luthiers Forum!

Dear OLFers—

Many of you don’t see the Announcements forum , so I thought I would mention this here. I am not posting this on anyone’s behalf, or because I was asked to. Nobody is responsible for this post but me. And my motivation is entirely self interest.

As happens from time to time, Lance (the owner of the OLF) is having trouble paying what it takes to keep the OLF running.

Now, some of you will read this and say to yourself: here we go again. Why doesn’t Lance do things differently, run this place better, get an upgrade and pay less money, etc., etc., etc. Actually, you have every right to ask those questions and present those challenging questions to Lance. There are a number of ways in which this forum could be better, and it is frustrating to notice Lance not doing any of those things.

While I see those thoughts and concerns as completely valid, I think we all need to ask a pretty basic question of ourselves: with all of its shortcomings, do I get value from the OLF in its current state? And if the answer is yes, then the second question is: am I paying anything in return for that value?

If you receive value from the OLF’s continued existence, I think you ought to pay Lance a little money every month via a Patreon sponsorship. I pay Lance $10 per month through Patreon, and have done so for nine years. I receive value from the OLF. I want to continue to receive that value. Call it a moral obligation or just wanting to keep the OLF available for my future instrument making endeavors. Either way of looking at it is fine.

This is not that different from public television. PBS is not perfect, but you know, I do watch it every now and then. If I watch it, I ought to pay a little something toward keeping it on the air. The same is true here. If you read posts on the OLF and learn things, then you ought to pay a little something toward keeping the OLF going.

If you condition your financial support of the OLF on first seeing big changes in how Lance runs it, that’s almost certain to not happen, so you will never pay anything. And if enough people continue to “get the milk for free,” instead of paying a little bit to help cover the costs, it will become increasingly likely that Lance will shut down the OLF. And that would really stink.

So, please, take a few dollars every month and pay it to Lance on Patreon. You will probably never convince Lance to improve the forum, but if enough people give a little bit, the forum can continue to be here when you need to look something up.

Thanks for reading.

Mixed feelings.

I love this place as much as the next participant and maybe even moreso, but…I need to see some cost breakdowns before I pony up.

I don’t need changes or mods to the forum, I like it as is. I don’t need thrilling new content every day, I don’t need it to trend or have engagement reach or whatever, I don’t want it to require a specific amount of engagement to make it onto the trend radar, I just need it to be a reliable place to ask questions that I have, and so far this place has never let me down. Happy to keep it as a message board.

But I need to know what’s real. How much does it cost to keep the lights on? What is required?

Well done Don and thank You.

Thanks, Ed. If it’s OK, I would like to use your post as a foil and ask some follow up questions.

Why do you want to know details about the finances of the OLF, and why do you want to pre-condition your financial support of the OLF on knowing those details? I’m not sticking up for Lance, or arguing that he deserves privacy; I just see my own personal donation analysis as not depending on that level of knowledge, so I want to better understand why others see it differently.

For me, it is about looking at what I get from the OLF. Do I get something out of it? Then I should want to give something in exchange for the value I receive. Like when I use the bathroom at a gas station, I buy something. They provide a place for me to relieve my bladder as a bonus service, adjunct to their business of selling me gasoline and snack food. I should do a little business with them. It’s the right thing to do.

Does anyone on the OLF think that Lance is raking in the dough by owning this forum? That he is scamming us all? I don’t think that is true. But even if it is, I know that the small amount of financial support I provide is a fair trade for the value I receive. I receive, so I give. For me, it is that simple. I don’t need to know whether Lance is good at running the OLF. In fact, I have developed the opinion that he is not. But I receive value from it, so I feel an obligation to contribute a small trickle of money towards keeping it running.

For those who want to peek under the hood and make sure this forum is a well run operation before they donate money towards its operation, I really am curious as to why you need that. But I also think Lance has proven he has no interest in changing how he runs the OLF, so to me, those with that sort of gatekeeper mindset should probably skip forward and ask themselves: what am I willing to do, assuming I will never get the information I want, and assuming Lance will never change how he runs the OLF? Because that’s probably how it is.

Maybe the issue is that some folks think of this as a handout, like you a funding a charity with your donations. Maybe you are of the mindset that you need to know that the cause is worthy and the organization is run well before you give it your donation. I encourage everyone to see this as more of a transaction, not a donation. You are not donating money towards the Lance Foundation. You are paying for a service from which you receive valuable information. That’s how I see it, anyway.

Don,

You make some good points.

My business experience with Lance has been terrible. He’s dishonest and unreliable at best. Do I want to see the OLF fail because of my experience with its founder? Nope - I will consider making a small donation -

Cheers, M

Hello Don and thanks for your post -

I can tell you why I have questions.

Using Patreon or some other service is an option for monthly support. With the rationale - well the lights were on another month - I don't need to cancel my plan. On the negative side you have to sign up for yet another service and worry about vulnerabilities of having credit card or bank info out in new territory, again.

I pay a lot of bills on an annual basis because it keeps things simple for me. But they are legit businesses with legal responsibilities to customers.

If I'm going to follow your lead in total but make a single contribution of $120 annually and the week I sent my $120$ the lights went out I'd be disappointed and feel like I threw away a chunk of money. I wouldn't buy a tool for $120 without reading reviews. Knowing some basic info on an investment isn't asking too much IMO. So that's why some basic info would be nice.

BUT, I'll continue to contribute and take my chances and hope for the best.

edit - Maybe I'll just trick myself into thinking the payments are for past services rendered. That'll work.

Cheers

_________________
Brian R, Wood Mechanic
N8ZED

Brian—

Thanks for your post. I think a reasonable way to manage the fear of the OLF going belly up after making an annual donation is to not make an annual donation; just keep it month to month. Annual might be easier for some things, but not for this thing, given your concerns.

Thinking of payments to the OLF as an investment is interesting. I don’t think of it in that way. To me, an investment is money I pay now, hoping that I will later receive some return that is greater than what I paid in. For me, the OLF is much more like giving money in return for things of value I have already received, even though I am not legally obligated to do so. I can tour some historical sites on the honor system. I don’t have to pay; but I feel I should, because I found the experience valuable. So, I put some money in the donation box.

I have some friends who get really jacked out of shape over the question of whether money they donate is being wasted by the organization to which they gave the money. I understand that perspective; you want people who manage worthy causes to be good stewards, or else you may want to go water other plants (to borrow a metaphor from my wife).

I just see the OLF as being completely different. It is not a charity or some noble endeavor we are helping to fund so it can pursue a mission. It is an online discussion forum that houses a LOT of information that is of value to a lot of us. It takes some amount of money to keep it running. I encourage every OLF participant to think of this in a purely transactional manner. Do you get valuable info here? Would it be a loss to you if it ceased to be here? Then pay a little trickle of money to keep it going. Assume the worst about the guy who runs it; but does that change the math regarding whether you get value from the OLF’s continued existence? It doesn’t for me.

Thanks for posting this, Don.

Like you suspected, I didn’t even know there was a request because I consume the OLF on Tapatalk and sticky threads / announcements don’t show up there.

Like you, I’ve donated monthly via Patreon for as long as there has been one and I will continue to do so for as long as there is one.

I don’t know Lance personally like a lot of you do. I came along in 2015 after struggling in the wilderness of making instruments from kits. I wanted so desperately to make a scratch build. My first post was about side bending and the tips I got pulled me through and I was off and running on build 001.

Most of what I know about making instruments has come directly from here or from connections with people I’ve made here. I am eternally grateful for that.

All that being said - there is a recurring theme of too little too late here. I will give examples:

1) Classifieds are dead. Activity there was severely hampered for years by a broken sign up process. It is largely a waste of money now, I’m not sure if I’m even being billed for it, and it didn’t have to be this way.

2) Archives are broken. We have reams of text for days but images are gone because people were forced to use 3rd party hosting sites. Photobucket, Tapatalk (after a certain age), the list goes one… these images are all lost and so the OLF archive loses out. People used 3rd party hosting sites to avoid the unfriendly resize requirements so that images are just a few kb in size in order to be uploaded. Many moved to Tapatalk to make image upload easier but those expire with time as well. Space is unbelievably cheap and the image restrictions haven’t needed to be this way for many years. The archives pay the price.

I’m pretty much with Chris on the absentee landlord position, sorry to say it.

We had a long discussion years ago about needing someone to help with maintaining accounts, resetting passwords, etc… nothing happened and then literally years later an ask came for help with admin duties.

I hope folks donate. I also hope somehow there is investment is thinking about the current user experience and seeing what can be improved. I also wouldn’t be opposed to more visibility into the overall financial health of the forum.

The Patreon account isn’t an OLF account, it’s a Lance as a creator account. Those of us that have been around a while understand the history but someone new might be taken back by donating to a Patreon in someone’s first name only with only one post since 2016.

Sorry for complaining, I don’t like it.

Brad


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

_________________
Insta - https://www.instagram.com/cbcguitars/
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Done

All valid concerns, for sure. I think those who have concerns should not relent in voicing them. This forum should be better. No argument from me on that.

My sole focus is on encouraging those who currently get the milk for free to start paying a little bit for it, because it is the right thing to do on our end. We can continue to nudge Lance to do the right thing on his end, for sure. And he will probably continue to fall short. But have we done what we should do? That’s my question. Brad and I do. I hope those who currently don’t will change their minds.

My concerns with the forum is the lack of management. The formum is still stuck with rules that are decades obsolete. I own and manage forums just like this one. With all of the bells and whistles it costs about $60 a month for two forums. Storage is very inexpensive now, so the photo posting limitations are too restrictive forcing people to link to hosted photos. As mentioned elsewhere these photos disappear making the site a poor site of archived information. I love the group of people on this forum so I do come back to it and have been a contributor. If I thought the management of the forum would change with donations I would be more willing to donate. To be honest I think it has been managed at a care takers level for more almost a decade. When Lance told Hesh the server costs were $600 a month, I had to roll my eyes. I have no problem with Lance monetizing the site and if that is main goal I get why he wants to close it down. Basically he is not making enough to make it worthwhile for his time. Maybe someone should ask if the community can take it over. The Australasian & New Zealand Luthiers Forum (ANZLF) is now supported by a formal incorporated structure. This gives transparency to the donations. A phpbb is easy to manage. With an administrator a couple of moderators spammers getting an account and filling the active postings for a few days can be avoided.

_________________
http://www.Harvestmoonguitars.com

I just want to know what’s real, that’s all. What is actually going on?

What amount of money buys a functionally positive resolution?

I think this place should be run as a for profit venture. Those types of operations tend to have greater investment by owners. Lance is in the wind.

What I really think is that Lance should sell this place to ‘us’ since it’s quite clear he no longer has any interest in running it.

As for milk…our collective participation, time, experience, and attention is the milk. We’re not getting it for free when we are also giving it out. I understand what you’re saying but we should separate the milk from the cow from the farm.

I suppose I project onto other folks what I feel about myself: That what I receive from the OLF in terms of information far exceeds the amount of information I provide. So, I feel like I should pay something in exchange for that value.

Milk = Information
Cows = Participants
Farm = OLF

Right?

If so, then I am a cow that drinks more milk than I produce here at the farm. So, I feel like I should pay something toward keeping the farm going. I get something out of having a farm around.

Everybody can make their own choices about how to spend their money. If the OLF doesn't warrant a monthly expenditure comparable to a fast food meal, then that's the way it is. I've shared the way I see the situation, and hope that others can see it this way, too. If not, I respect your choices.

All reasonable arguments and I also would like to see the site managed better. That said I did sign up to make a Patreon contribution some time ago using similar reasoning to Don.

_________________
Steve Smith
"Music is what feelings sound like"

It is my understanding that some folks have tried to talk to Lance about changes along these lines. It is also my understanding that they got nowhere.

I don't want to squelch problem-solving efforts, but honestly, if you/we want Lance to change how this forum is run, you/we are going to have to find someone who can get through to him better than the people who have tried thus far. This is why I move past the problem-solving to ask myself whether the OLF, as-is (warts and all), provides me with something that is worth a little bit of my money every month. Because all indications are that Lance is not going to solve the problems, and things are going to stay the way they are.

So as originally couched the forum is what it is, Lance is not interested in changing things and he has not expressed a willingness to sell the forum.

I'll add that the forum software is very dated and like John I have experience here too and know that when you get too many versions behind updating can be impossible. It's been my impression for years now pre pandemic that because of the lack of updates in combination with custom work once done long ago Lance is operating under the confines of this software package.

And.... some of you may recall what happened long ago with a co-owner of the OLF at one time? Then you noticed statements on the pages that the OLF is "solely owned by Lance Kragenbrink?" That was an effort to reassert Lance's sole ownership of the OLF. With this said and as someone who has actually bought companies for a living in my past life due diligence may reveal that there is not a clear title to the OLF without a lot of work to get things untangled.

With all this said there is nothing stopping anyone from starting a new forum with new software and a structure that is more appealing to more of you. I for one want moderation and a requirement for real names.

Lastly I've thought about buying the OLF. I also think it would be a bad buy with membership and activity way down, antiquated software, a clear deficit of the kind of expertise that the forum once had AND all similar forums are ready to be shut down too when I look at their participation levels.

Requests and there is another thread about this right now on the OLF requests to apprentice with us are way down, the number of young folks except for the one I'm helping right now before he goes to the Galloup School is also down in my experience.

With all this said the reality for me is again.... the forum is what it is, take it or leave it and if you don't like how I couch this or consider me a poor salesman you need to pull your head out I am not selling anything. I am the guy who is telling you that we have a problem and I am honestly describing what I know of the problem while walking a difficult line with Lance, my friend.

Considering all these factors and I don't think that the OLF is worth much of anything in terms of a price. Its real value remains as it is right now.

Lastly the real value of any forum is not the archive, not the software, not moderation or no moderation. The real value of a forum when it's successful like the OLF once was is and was the specific on-line community and how they, we interact positively to further a pursuit and knowledge.

So consider me an observer now. I'm OK if it's time to turn out the lights or simply not come here any more. If there are folks who benefit from the forum and there clearly are I'm going to stick around until I'm carried out to help them.

It will be interesting to revisit this thread a year from now and find out who were the realists here and if anything changes, if the forum even survives and if Lance ever sells or lets go of the OLF. My bet is..... it is what it is.

Wanted to add I do support efforts to fund the forum by funding Lance. We have to try. I have to try to help the OLF.

So many thanks to all of those surfaced and not who are helping, you guys are great!

I joined the MIMF back in the late 90's and remember Lance joining and eventually musing about starting his own forum, which obviously happened and was very successful for many years. I certainly don't need to repeat the reasons many pros left, just like the MIMF. Without getting into details about why both have consecutively dried up or slowed down significantly, I still really appreciate the pros and experience of those who still contribute here. The Faceplant groups are helpful although with a lot of historical mistakes and learnings still being repeated ad nauseum. Better than just referring to archives with correct info I suppose that have no back and forth banter. Not at all like the community that the MIMF, OLF and a few other forums had (and still have on a limited basis) going. I actually liked and understood Deb a lot even with her shortcomings or annoyances which we all have. Her heart was in the right place if somewhat abrasive at times. I often wonder how Amy is doing. She was a gem. I guess it's progress according to how social media and the internet works these days. Technology has helped and hindered. Strange and changing world as always.