Official Luthiers Forum!

I have been reading how it takes so long for an addi top to open up.

I've read that a way to speed the process is to place the guitar facing stereo speakers. This is logical to me. Sheeeesh, in the sixties I could have put tops in front of speakers and they would have opened fully in 1 week, .

I am wondering if the top were braced lighter (decrease width of all braces,tonebars and finger braces, thin more around edges etc.)if the top would open sooner or is there a danger that when it finally opens,the top and bracing would be too light and would result in to much decrease in stifness of top.(I don't know if I explained well)

One thing we picked up in ES's class is that you can lighten these tops up to an unbelievable level and they will be fine structurally.

His guitars had a huge open sound right out of the box. We saw a new guitar he built and it sounded really good.

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Brock Poling
Columbus, Ohio
http://www.polingguitars.com

It is way too much to try to post, but he does it to deflection, not to a target thinnness. A lot of factors play into this, general longitudinal stiffnesss, density of the plate, etc. So they vary. However they are THIN. And the braces end up short too.

On the sample top we did in class my top ended up .07x" and my x brace at the joint was about 3/8" tall.

The other noticible thing about his guitars is you can feel the top move up and down on his guitars with just a slight finger pressure. They are very responsive.

It was an eye opening experience. I highly recommend the class. But... the bottom line with the respect to the question of how light can you go.... I think you can lighten up a lot.

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Brock Poling
Columbus, Ohio
http://www.polingguitars.com

Would you please mind setting forth how thin you make your addi,and for what type of B/S are used for the top

Again, the tops are thinned to a given deflection, not to a target thickness. So, the stiffer the soundplate is longitudinally the thinner you can take it. If you think about it this makes a lot of sense.

Regarding back and sides, rosewood or mahogany are hard to beat.

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Brock Poling
Columbus, Ohio
http://www.polingguitars.com

[QUOTE=Hesh1956] This guitar will be a cannon I am sure.[/QUOTE]
Or a drum!

Adrumster Guitars, that would be the name huh!

Good for the income tax season if you want to get your refunds first!

Good post Hesh. Yes, that is essentially it with resect to the ES method. I am intentionally being cryptic -- not from a reluctance to share -- but from the fact that there is 7 very intense days of info in this method and one "nugget" alone won't be all that valuable. I hate to send you off in the wrong direction.

Two other pieces of info that I WILL tell you though -- which I was very surprised by... are 1) In this method the PRIMARY stiffness that matters is longitudinal. Lateral stiffness is considered, but not factored in when choosing a top or thinning it. That can be modified during the bracing. 2) No scalloping. One of the biggest eye openers that I got from the class is that he sees the braces as conduits for channeling the energy of the top as the primary role of the bracing. The structural components will usually take care of themselves. (There are rules of course).

Again... I highly recommend the class.   

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Brock Poling
Columbus, Ohio
http://www.polingguitars.com

Thank you all for taking the time to furnish such great info.

Thanks Hesh and Brock, i'm all ears to hear further input on this!

Me too!

Ahh....theories and different approaches to guitar building...is one better than another?
We could debate all this all day long, and the only conclusion we would come to is that there are many ways to the same end in guitar making.
Some make tops thinner, others make them thicker.
Some prefer to start with material that is more floppy than others do. Some prefer the stiffest top they can find. Some scallop, others don't. Those who desire to get the pre-war Martin sound scallop the braces, others who do other styles of guitars don't.
It's partly a question of what you're building guitars for, partly a question of where your experience brings you.
Ervin Somogyi is a genius for sure, and I'm sure I could learn a lot of things from him, but I don't want to build guitars that sound like a Somogyi guitar. There's nothing wrong with his sound, it's great. But I want to build guitars that sound like I want them to sound. My sound.
We all have a sound we like and would like to target, but it's different for all of us. Ervin's theories and practices are great, but you have to understand that they lead to his sound, which may not be the one you want.

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"I want to know what kind of pickups Vince Gill uses in his Tele, because if I had those, as good of a player as I am, I'm sure I could make it sound like that.
Only badly."

[QUOTE=Don Williams] Ahh....theories and different approaches to guitar building...is one better than another?
We could debate all this all day long, and the only conclusion we would come to is that there are many ways to the same end in guitar making.
Some make tops thinner, others make them thicker.
Some prefer to start with material that is more floppy than others do. Some prefer the stiffest top they can find. Some scallop, others don't. Those who desire to get the pre-war Martin sound scallop the braces, others who do other styles of guitars don't.
It's partly a question of what you're building guitars for, partly a question of where your experience brings you.
Ervin Somogyi is a genius for sure, and I'm sure I could learn a lot of things from him, but I don't want to build guitars that sound like a Somogyi guitar. There's nothing wrong with his sound, it's great. But I want to build guitars that sound like I want them to sound. My sound.
We all have a sound we like and would like to target, but it's different for all of us. Ervin's theories and practices are great, but you have to understand that they lead to his sound, which may not be the one you want.
[/QUOTE]

I agree with you (sort of) . You need to do what works for you. However, I do think that those who have come before us have learned a lot (and most of them from endless experiementation -- most of them were pre-internet ).

But I for one "got religion" at ES's shop. I agree there may be several roads to the same place, and the Somogyi way is not the only way, but I understand his methodology and I am happy to embrace it fully.

I am quite sure that if I do, my guitars will not sound like his. They will sound like mine. He really helps you understand what is happening and how to control the sound. How you choose to implement that knowledge is up to you.

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Brock Poling
Columbus, Ohio
http://www.polingguitars.com

While i was visiting Sergei De Yonge's shop and place, one of his students told me that the Man himself said that the more he builds, the less certainties he has!

I'd call that wisdom, sort of...

You are all wonderful, as always, to take the time to furnish such great info.
Thanks to all,