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Well put Mario!
I hope one day to get the privilege of hearing just that!

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Lance@LuthiersForum.com

Anthony, Tony Karol's guitar sounded great to my ears, and looked wonderful to say the least, i suspect that you are willingly trying to save us some money or better yet some lonely nights on the sofa!

Thanks Mario! I doubt it could have been verbalized any better.

Well I guess I'll hang on to the couple sets of BRW till I feel worthy of using them.

Thanks again for the explanation. From the sample of BRW guitars I've played -- I was thinking BRW was a lot of hype.

Sergio I agree Tony's BRW sounds fabulous (I try to play it everytime I get to see him), but so did the Cocobolo one we all played, some walnut ones of his that I've played and the cherry parlor sitting in my living room.

After Mario's guidance -- me thinks I'd like to try a vintage one.

Oh well still learning (and yes sleeping on the sofa or worse yet the shop is a consideration )

With apologies for possibly hijacking the thread when the theme was the joy of BRW.

Ducking back into my cave now...

Wait 'till i sell those empties you guys.. ahem...i think i should consider buying lottery tickets instead!

All I know is I am buying as much of it as I possibly can afford.

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Brock Poling
Columbus, Ohio
http://www.polingguitars.com

I played a Lucas Brazilian dread that "had it"...first modern guitar I've played that did, though I haven't played a ton of them.

When you really think about it, $300 is a pretty ridiculous price to pay for a couple pounds of wood in thin slices. And $2000 is definitely ridiculous. But people are happy to pay premium markup prices on the stuff, so who cares?

The market decides.

Andrew <---whose small Brazilian stash is going to be gone faster than he expected

well put Mario. Still to this day the best sounding guitar I've ever heard was a Bourgeois OMS 12 fretter. Dana had built the box years back and it sat around. finally got around to finishing it off, and it was AMAZING. Everything you could want out of a guitar, and more. Incredible Brazilian Back and sides and a wonderful European Bearclaw top. Wish I could say I helped build it but I did not at all...but it was amazing.

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John Mayes
http://www.mayesluthier.com

John,

I don't know if that's a fair example. I think Bourgeois could make toast sound good. One of the best guitars I've ever played was a low-end slope-shoulder Bourgeois dred from his earliest factory venture. It was just mahogany and sitka, and it sang like angels; and I don't even usually like dreds.

[QUOTE=Mario] Not until you hear a great one will you "get it". Once you do, it'll be clear. It's these great ones, and the folklore that follows them, that keeps the demand high.

...

But, for sure, if you ever get to sit across a truly great one, in the hands of a player who can wring the tone out of it, and if you have ears capable of hearing it, it can be magic. Then, you'll get it.[/QUOTE]
Mario,

Not trying to start a fight, but are you one of the people who believe that you could distinguish BRW from other brittle/glassy woods (like Granadillo, and all the other Rosewoods), blindfolded? (As a listener, not as a player, because there may be some tactile clues.)

I'd be stunned if you could. In fact, no disrespect, but I will not believe it can be done until someone proves it to me.

Test scenario: someone try to build 5 "identical" guitars: BRW, E.I. Rosewood, Madagascar Rosewood, Cocobolo Rosewood, and Granadillo. Test subjects enter a room, blindfolded, and sit and listen to the same passages played on all 5 guitars by the same player. Repeat the test 3 times, take off the blindfold and check your score. Good luck.

Dennis Leahy

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Dennis Leahy
Duluth, MN, USA
7th Sense Multimedia

Not trying to start a fight, but are you one of the people who believe that you could distinguish BRW from other brittle/glassy woods

Of course not, but I would put some serious money down that I could tell a pre war 28 from an 18, every time.

I agree with Mario re the brittle/glassy woods sounding very similar. Surely reflection/absorption of sound waves would be more heavily influenced by the mass (KG per M3) of the wood rather than a particular grain structure or colour, same dog different leg action so to speak.

Now as for ageing under tension, that makes for a different dog all together. It may well be that the Ziricote used today because of the prohibitive cost of BRW will prove tonally superior to BRW in 60 years or so, only time will tell.

However, I see no real end to this debate, science has never been allowed to get in the way of tradition, or a good bit of romance and legend. Those things will always prevail just like Cris Columbus and may be, for the sake of imagination, that is not such a bad thing.

Cheers

Kim

I really have to agree with Mario on this one. When I was building
MacPhersons and Galloups we would usually build batches of four or
eight identical models with different woods. After building a few hundred
guitars this way I could almost tell you what binding it had in a blind test.


But really, I could have the students go in the next room and pick up one
guitar out of a batch and tell them the model, top wood and back and
sides every single time. Now it is certainly true that the current rarity and
exclusivity of the wood inflates peoples opinion of it, as well as the
aesthetic beauty of the grain and color. I feel the same way about most
ivory and mamoth tusk saddles (although Lance, I must admit the FWI on
your last guitar gave me pause to rethink). Although there may be many
woods that are nearly equivalent in density and stiffness, they will still
show thier own unique tonal character in a finely built instrument.David Collins38945.0802083333

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Eschew obfuscation, espouse elucidation.

[QUOTE=larkim] [QUOTE=kiwigeo]

My point is however that 2K is an obscene amount to pay for just one set of wood. When this sort of money is on the table it has a flow on affect. It goes right back to the jungle and temptation becomes so high that it pushes good people into doing things that they may not ordinarily consider doing.

[/QUOTE]

One thing they may do that they hadn't considered doing is letting those young rosewood trees grow to maturity and meanwhile planting more, instead of clear cutting the whole forest to make room for cattle grazing, which is what they had been planning to do. Oh, but wait, why should they do that when they can't sell the wood? Better to go ahead and clear that land for cattle after all.

Conservation is a complex issue. Banning sales may be the wrong way to go about it. Or not. But simple answers to complex problems are often wrong.

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Howard Klepper
http://www.klepperguitars.com

When all else fails, clean the shop.

[QUOTE=Howard Klepper] One thing they may do that they hadn't considered doing is letting those young rosewood trees grow to maturity and meanwhile planting more, instead of clear cutting the whole forest to make room for cattle grazing, which is what they had been planning to do. Oh, but wait, why should they do that when they can't sell the wood? Better to go ahead and clear that land for cattle after all.

Conservation is a complex issue. Banning sales may be the wrong way to go about it. Or not. But simple answers to complex problems are often wrong.[/QUOTE]

Howard,

It is indeed complex, if you leave the trees to mature, you can't start to profit for a few hundred years, it's hardwood, it's really is that slow. No one in that economy can afford to wait that long, they got to eat too.

My experience with Cycads, encephalartos in particular, has already exposed me to the short comings of the CITES agreement.

It seems as soon as something makes the list at category 1, prices go through the roof. So much so that plants once considered logistically unviable to harvest or to risky to steal from more accessible areas become fair game.

Because of their CITES classification and the fact that they to are slow growing, large encephalartos become worth thousands to collectors. As a result, poachers in South Africa arm themselves with guns and helicopters and go into the veld with a change of focus from fauna to flora. This really does becomes deadly serious business.

Also, botanical gardens and private collectors have their gardens raided. Some have been stripped of prized collections over night, including among many others, Fairchild Botanical Garden in the USA SEE HERE which has been hit on a number of occasions.

Like I said, big money always turns everything real bad, real quick. What to do? I got no idea, but I reckon being drawn into paying that much money for a set is not the answer. Pay it once, pay it forever and you fuel the fire as you go.

Anyhow, I am sure that it will be to everyones relief if I put a sock in it and say no more on this topic, it looks like Bruce had a gut full ages ago.

(Sorry Bruce, must be the Irish blood from me convict ancestors bubbling away...hmmm could also be the short armed long pocketed Scot coming out in me to)

Cheers all

Kim

[QUOTE=Hesh1956]



Any way I know this is by far not a scientific test but the BRW guitars from most makers at Dream Guitars through my sound system sound better than the other non-BRW guitars IMHO.


[/QUOTE]

Brazilian Rosewood speakers??

[QUOTE=larkim] It's just wood, no more only a couple of bits of wood. I think it is shameful for anyone to pay this sort of money as it just fuels the fire of destruction that has led us to this point, just my opinion though and no more.

Cheers

Kim[/QUOTE]

I see alot of similarities between BRW and Grange Hermitage wine. Grange is so expensive that if you buy it with the intention of drinking the stuff you need your head read. I wonder how many people buy BRW purely as an investment rather than to turn into a guitar?

BRW...the Grange Hermitage of tonewoods?

Kim, I think these questions are well worth discussing. I appreciate hearing about your experience.

I have read that dalbergia nigra has been planted a bunch in Costa Rica over the last decade, and that they expect to be able to begin harvesting in 50-80 years.

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Howard Klepper
http://www.klepperguitars.com

When all else fails, clean the shop.

For some reason, I thought I heard that dalbergia nigra was a relatively fast-growing tropical tree??? If so, a long-term plan for planting can be a smart thing for a country or private interests to consider. Brazilian rosewood is always going to be money in the bank if it becomes planted in quantity and legal to harvest again.

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"I want to know what kind of pickups Vince Gill uses in his Tele, because if I had those, as good of a player as I am, I'm sure I could make it sound like that.
Only badly."

Sustainable yield planting and harvesting is a great thing, but the wood that
comes from that harvest is not going to be the same as the old stuff. The
wood that established brazilian rosewood's reputation was virgin growth,
and typically coastal dalbergia nigra. There are so many different
ecosystems within Brazil, that along with soil conditions and the fact tree
farms do not start thier growth under a canopy, I would expect this type of
timber to be much different.

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Eschew obfuscation, espouse elucidation.

[QUOTE=Hesh1956] Dennis I visit the Dream guitars site frequently and recently they had a Somogyi BRW. ...

The BRW Somogyi guitar was the best guitar that I have ever heard....   but the BRW guitars ... sound better than the other non-BRW guitars IMHO.
[/QUOTE]

I have one set of BRW that I bought from LM before they became LMI. I will either (eventually) trade it for 3 or 4 gorgeous sets of some "lesser" species, or it will be saved for that moment when I believe I have the skills to get the most from it. It is that latter condition, I believe, that each luthier at any skill level is affected by. Any luthier will "rise to the occasion" and perform at their highest level when they have expensive, rare material at hand. And, they will usually couple it with other material of the same lofty stature: the finest soundboard, etc. In other words, I do believe that there is a chance that at least some BRW guitars are among the finest guitars around, but it may not be the BRW itself as much as the mindset of the luthier.



[QUOTE=David Collins] When I was building MacPhersons and Galloups we would usually build batches of four or eight identical models with different woods. After building a few hundred guitars this way I could almost tell you what binding it had in a blind test.

But really, I could have the students go in the next room and pick up one guitar out of a batch and tell them the model, top wood and back and sides every single time. [/QUOTE]

David, I don't know what to say. You are breathing rarefied air (that's a compliment) if you can truly distinguish between glassy woods (not just mahogany vs. rosewood or other less subtle differences.) I'd love to witness you doing this. At least I would know it could be done. Moreover, your test scenario conditions sound like excellent constraints against the possibility/probability of luthiers putting more "magic" (tweaking) specific instruments due to species, because it is a factory setting.

I guess the next question I would ask of someone who could hear subtle nuances between those high density, glassy, rings-like-a-bell woods, is "what sounds best, to your ears?" I'd love to hear you say Padauk or Granadillo, or something other than one of the Rosewoods. I guess I just love myth-busters.

Dennis

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Dennis Leahy
Duluth, MN, USA
7th Sense Multimedia

I have to be honest Dennis, if I were blindfolded in a room with different
guitars from a number of different makers I doubt my accuracy would be
nearly as high. Building guitars in the way we were doing there however, a
persons ears can become very accutely tuned in to even the most subtle
nuances. We also typically did not build from woods quite so identical to
each other. Tops were sitka, adirondack, engleman, redwood, cedar or
mahogany. Back/sides could be EIR, BR, mahogany or curly maple. Still, the
differences are certainly there, and really became quite wide and more
obvious with time.

Lately I've been anxious to start trying ipe for back and sides, and have
access to a tremendous amount excellent cypress from Italy that I would like
to use as well.David Collins38946.061087963

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Eschew obfuscation, espouse elucidation.