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Hey Matt....

All you need is a little coordination too.

Which means I won't have any success at it!



Don Williams38945.4935532407

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"I want to know what kind of pickups Vince Gill uses in his Tele, because if I had those, as good of a player as I am, I'm sure I could make it sound like that.
Only badly."

Fish Glue sounds like interesting stuff. Like in Pauls post above I’m not sure I’m fast enough to use HHG very well, so I’ve played with it some but have avoided it on instruments so far.
However I had the opportunity to get together with a wonderful cello maker in my area, Anne Cole, and we had the HHG discussion, she was surprised that you could make an instrument without it. She pretty much convinced me I’m just afraid of it and have done too much reading on it.
Her technique is to put a thin sizing on each of the pieces to be glued, then she glues the pieces with normal HHG and sets the pieces next to a heater for an hour. She does everything with HHG, linings, tops to the sides, etc.. She does not seems to be too concerned about the working time as she thinks setting the pieces next to the heater takes care of this.
I don’t know about this, but will try it. She’s done this for like 30 years and hasn’t had a failure. Does anybody do anything similar to this?

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Jim Watts
http://jameswattsguitars.com

Jim, on the one bridge that actually held, I warmed it under a halogen light before gluing it on. that must have helped because it's still on.

My solution to using HHG on a bridge is the vacumme clamp. Being that you can place and clamp in about 15 seconds it works well. I have PULLED out hair trying to do braces with a gobar. Someday ill have a nice vac clamp for tops and backs too.

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Lance@LuthiersForum.com

That's interesting Paul. Thanks
I'm going to try Annes technique on a bridge blank and some scrap sometime this week. I'll let you know how it goes.

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Jim Watts
http://jameswattsguitars.com

I've wondered if this would work: take one of those double-burner electric hot plates, put a steel pan over both burners, wrap bridges or braces or headplates, etc. in a towel and put 'em in the pan--heat to 90 F. or so and pull them out as needed. HHG Heaven?

Lance,
Dick (fine tools) sells lsinglass Glue. Made from the bladders of Russian sturgeons. Supposedly the best "fish" glue you can buy. Pricey... 500g is roughly $350 u.s. (with shipping). www.dick.biz item# 450158
I will let you know how it is when I get around to trying it.

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Dave Bland

remember...

"If it doesn't play in tune...it's just pretty wood"

I believe that Joshua French uses fish glue on his stunning creations. I've been trying to source some in the UK to give it a try, OK I'm happy with HHG, but I like experimenting (I am after all an experimental scientist!)

Colin

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I don't believe in anything, I simply make use of a set of reasonable working hypotheses.

I always enjoy the HHG discussions. Maybe it's because I feel I can contribute something to the body of knowledge based on my experience since my 1st guitar. I can honestly say that I have had great results not only with joining practically everything (except FB to neck) as well as not yet having a joint failure for 4 years and 5 guitars. Before I ever tried it on a guitar, I practiced on scrap pieces to become familiarized with its properties and nuances. That's how I gained the knowledge and confidence that I could pull off the operations when I went "live". I'm basically a clutz so if I can do it anybody can.

There's no question that you need to work fast. In general, here's what works for me:
...plan each operation and choreograph your motions in advance. Bridges and braces are easier since the natural tack keeps them in place and won't slip out once gobar or clamp force is applied. Tops and backs are more difficult since speed is critical.
...Practice and time your movements in the dry state and then memorize the motions.
...have all your clamps organized and within reach so that they can be quickly applied
...Heat all surfaces prior to applying the glue...it increases open time.

Specifically, here's how I handle the following operations:

BRIDGE:
...I locate the bridge and drill small holes in the E & e locations through the bridge, top, bridge plate and bridge caul.
...Remove the finish from the top where the bridge will sit.
...lightly scrape or sand the bottom of the bridge to activate the surface
...heat the top surface with a hair dryer
...a few minutes before gluing the bridge on, I brush on a thinned solution of HHG to the area on top to "size" and seal the bare wood. Keep the top heated.
...Microwave the bridge for 15 sec on "high"
...Install the pins in the bridge holes
...brush on standard thickness HHG to both surfaces
...Seat the bridge and hand clamp until the natural tack keeps it in place (5-10 sec)
...Clamp. I use the SM Bridge Clamping Caul (#4600) and 2 soundhole clamps
...remove the locating pins after about 15 minutes and clean up the squeeze out.
...I leave it clamped overnight

BRACES:
...Clamp the plate in its appropriate radiused sanding dish within the gobar deck
...lightly scrape the gluing surfaces to activate them
...heat the plate surface with a hair dryer
...Microwave the brace
...apply a bead of thickened HHG to either the penciled brace location or the brace itself.
...locate the brace to the proper position and slide it until you feel it tackify.
...set gobars...I use flat-topped braces so the gobars have more surface area to bear upon. I profile the braces once they're glued on.

Tops & Backs: This takes more time to describe than I have right now. If anyone's interested I'll follow up with a post later.

Good luck, may the Force be with you and KTF (keep the faith)!!!

P.S. David...I'm going to experiment with your smelly fish glue. Thanks for the input.


JJ Donohue38946.4763310185

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JJ
Napa, CA
http://www.DonohueGuitars.com

Not all fish glues are the same quality...the Isinglass glue is incredible quality but also the most expensive.

I have just returned (yesterday) from Jose Romanillos' Guitarmaking course in Spain which is where I believe that Joshua went to in 2002 (or 2003) and where he learned of fish glue.

After building with it for the last two weeks I can say that it has all of the best qualities of hot hide glue but with none of the hassles. I do not know how it compares over time but from what I have heard from other luthiers in Europe that have worked with it, it certains sounds good.

The one caution about fish glue is the trait that it has in common with hide glue and that is that they are both hydroscopic which means that they are sensitive to moisture and humidity so if high humidity is an issue as it would be in Florida or Taiwan and other very humid places, you would want to instrad use titebond.

It is really high tack but because it has an open time of a minute as opposed to seconds for hot hide glue, it is much more forgiving. When dry the residue is very crystaline and is very similar to hide glue. What is nice is that it can be used at room temperature instead of the temperatures needed (for the glue and workpiece) with hot hide glue. I really like it! It was a german brand...I do not remember the name but will post it as soon as I find it.

At the Romanillos course we had titebond and fishglue. The only thing that I ended up using titebond for was for joining my backs and tops with everything else I used fish glue.

Note I normally use nothing but Hot Hide Glue and was naturally resistant to using something else but was intrigued by the promise of fish glue and was really surprised how much it worked like hot hide glue without having to deal with mixing, heating and such...

Shawn, forget the fish glue man! Tell us about the Romanillos class!
Actually, I'd really like to know about the fish too.Jim_W38948.6868171296

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Jim Watts
http://jameswattsguitars.com

Yeah, Shawn, spill the goods on Romanillos!

Shawn,
What's the clamp time on fish glue?

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Jim Watts
http://jameswattsguitars.com

Fish Glue is very fast...for the glue blocks that we used for attaching our tops in the Romanillos course all we did was hold each glue block (by hand) for a count of ten and they held...within 2 minutes they were unmovable...no clamping. Under a minute you have time to move and adjust but because of the high tack most pieces even unclamped do not move much.

For pieces that are more structural I kept them clamped a max of 45 minutes but could have taken the clamps off after 10 minutes.

When I need 60 to 80 seconds maybe more, before set-up, I use high clarity HHG mixed 1 part to 1.9 water.   I heat my shop up to 85+ degrees, heat both parts with heat gun, apply the glue very thick so it doesn't cool quick while open. Final clamp then sit for 8 hours.

Applying thick makes a big difference in working time in my experience, thin evaporates too quick while the joint is open.   Thick is messy because the large amount of squeeze out but once clamped you have plenty of time for an easy clean-up with a hot wet rag.

A big hassle compared to titebond, but I still do it.

I have used fish glue for years. Never a problem...

I use it for rosettes especially, since I don't need to clean up the excess before adding the next piece.

I use it for the top braces, and I "spring" them into a dome - no creep.

The high tack is very helpful for braces and bridges, though the cleanup can be difficult. But just use warm water and it helps.

For menial things (headplates, bindings, etc) I just use titebond.

Anything glued to the top though, fish glue. Sometimes hide glue cause I like preparing it on occasion.jfrench38949.9907060185

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Instagram: @jfrenchluthier
Web: https://www.jfrenchguitars.com/

[QUOTE=Matt Gage]
At this point, I hav`nt got time for the pain. [/QUOTE]

Great line Matt. I was regluing a ebony to red cedar bridge connection last night. Then it hit me. This guitar may have gotten left in a hot car....