Official Luthiers Forum!

I think if you were to do a quick survey of websites run by luthiers on this forum, you would find that almost every one of them advertises the "handbuild" or "handcrafted" qualities of their instruments. You probably wouldn't find many that advertise "I outsource many of my parts to others who can make the part more efficiently than I can."

Is the custom guitar market accepting of CNC and outsourcing? Sure, to an extent. Can CNC and outsourcing improve your instruments? You bet. (It certainly would improve my inlay work.) But many customer guitar buyers are not just buying a finished product. They are buying a romantic process, an experience that involves a relationship between a customer, a craftsman, and an instrument. That romance can tolerate a certain amount of CNC and outsourcing. But the more CNC and outsourcing you have, the more focus is on the finished product, and the less focus is on the romance of the process.

There's nothing wrong with that, if your customer base accepts it. It's not an inherently bad thing to have machines manufacture excellent quality parts for you, unless your customers want you to build the parts rather than the machines. And judging by the number of "handbuilt/handmade/handcrafted" statements luthiers are putting on their websites, I suspect there's a significant customer base that places a high priority on the romance of the handmade aspects of the guitar.

Which means efficiency and build quality is not the only factor in deciding how to build your instruments; it's worth giving some thought to how much you can rely on automation and outsourcing before your customers will see you as another guitar factory.

Here is my take...

CNC has its place, and it doesn't interfere with the "hand built" moniker. Here's why.

One builder follows the entire process from start to end. Even if CNC'd parts are used they are usually made to the specification of the builder. Honestly does anyone REALLY care if my head blocks are milled on a CNC machine? (mine aren't, but you get my point.) Does it diminish in my abilities as a builder? Probably not. We recently had a thread about hand cutting your own binding channels. Does that make you a better luthier? No. Maybe a better woodworker, but certainly not a better luthier.   Because one person owns the process from beginning to end I still think you have every right to say your guitars are hand built.

I don't think you should rely on CNC as a crutch for not learning how to build, but barring that, I have no problem with it.

And... the other thing I think about how we integrate CNC is that we differ from factories in one super major way. Whereas factories build ALL guitars to a given set of specifications with tight tolerances, we have the luxury of working with each piece of wood, thinning the tops to optimum thickness -- not a target amount, carving braces by hand and tuning tops and backs, doing set ups with a strobe tuner. Things the factories really can't do. This is one of our clear differentiators.

I agree we are selling romance, and there isn't as much (from the customers viewpoint) sex appeal in watching a CNC machine carve a neck as watching some wizened old dude with a rasp, but I think there is some medium ground.

For me.... Anything goes on my electrics. I ultimately think these are planks with strings on them so I really don't worry so much about the integrity of CNC. I like to build these, but they are not my passion. However, on my acoustics I am much more judicious about the use of CNC. Thus far, I have only used CNC to make tooling that helps improve the effeciency or the accuracy.

I have no moral dilima with using CNC... I just enjoy the process of building guitars.

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Brock Poling
Columbus, Ohio
http://www.polingguitars.com

Oh and by the way Dave a piece of string is 5' 11" or 1.8 Metres in Metric cause they cheat you out of a little bit on the end,

Let's go a step further. Is a kit a handbuilt guitar. You bet your booties it is. I've built 6 completed acoustic guitars with 3 more in process, and approximately 10 electric guitars and basses. That makes me somewhere between a novice and a pro lite. I have built all of these guitars from scratch with the following exceptions 1 Martin kit, and 1 purchased neck on an electric bass. The Martin kit incorporated some time saving features- bent sides, precarved neck and bridge, slotted tapered and arched fretboard, pre inlayed rosette. But I've seen several instruments made from kits by "Joe Dokes off the street", and they are just assembled and really have no soul. Then I have seen several instruments built from kits that compare favorably with most other high-end handbuilt (or factory built) guitars.
I believe that it's not so much what you start with as it is what you put into it. When I built the Martin kit I still built it with my own two hands, I braced it to my liking, and I made the modifications that made it my own unique piece of work. Unfortunately, some of the CNC work was what I enjoy the most. Many of my guitars start with my cutting billets with a chainsaw. You don't get much more basic than that.

Al

Heh! Is anyone's mind ever going to be changed in one of these discussions? I doubt it. I suppose, though, that it has value for people brand spankin' new to lutherie, and haven't formed a philosophy yet.

Not many luthiers fell their own trees, do all their own resawing, fabricate their own frets and tuning gears, harvest their own shellac and distill their own ethynol. Virtually no one produces a completely hand-made guitar any more, so it's just a matter of degrees. To each his own. It's all good.

CarltonM, I agree, it is all good

Mike
White Oak, Texas

Well said Carlton!

[QUOTE=CarltonM] Heh! Is anyone's mind ever going to be changed in one of these discussions? I doubt it. I suppose, though, that it has value for people brand spankin' new to lutherie, and haven't formed a philosophy yet.

Not many luthiers fell their own trees, do all their own resawing, fabricate their own frets and tuning gears, harvest their own shellac and distill their own ethynol. Virtually no one produces a completely hand-made guitar any more, so it's just a matter of degrees. To each his own. It's all good. [/QUOTE]

Carlton,

You nailed it!!!
Let me add to it. Was that router bit ground by hand? No, probably machined somewhere. So what!
The romance is in the process and the "human touch" used to bring the final product "to life".

Paul

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Paul Bordeaux
http://www.bordeauxinlay.com

[QUOTE=Hesh1956] At the end of the day it's what ever measure we as individuals accept as our own.
[/QUOTE]

I don't know about that.... let's not lose our heads...   


Definitely there is some latitude in this though.

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Brock Poling
Columbus, Ohio
http://www.polingguitars.com

My point was that the "whatever we choose to think as individuals is right" type of philosophy is not always accurate.   Clearly, this is a pursuit where a LOT of roads lead to Rome, but not all of them.

I think if you outsource enough of the process there becomes a point when you are no longer engaged in lutherie, but manufacturing on a small scale. To think otherwise would be incorrect.

However, I freely acknowledge that at what point this happens is open for debate.

Don't misunderstand, I am 100% ok with CNC, I just think that if taken to the far ends of what is possible we are virtually indistinguishable from the manufacturers.

I am not really disagreeing with you... merely saying that there *** IS *** a point somewhere where where "artisian" becomes something else.

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Brock Poling
Columbus, Ohio
http://www.polingguitars.com

This can be argued ,for ever,what really matters is that you the builder ,are providing the best instrument you can,in the method and style you feel good about,after all you have to be proud of your finished product,or piece of art ,if you like.CNC or not ? who cares

My opinion.....(almost) nobody cares. The last guitar I gave away, (I don’t sell them at this point, and I don’t collect them), I had a couple of folks take a look at it before I passed it on. These folks are players, not luthiers, but they noticed the small squiggle in the rosette, the slight binding imperfection on the lower bout, the tail wedge that was off a couple of degrees, the spot where the finish was not too nice, but never said a word about the cnc neck I bought off of ebay. They were impressed with the sound, which made me feel good, and the playability was deemed to be petty good too. 99.999% of folks are expecting to see cnc quality instruments like Taylors and Martins, and the like. I doubt I have the skill to produce fit and finish to that level. But, I can thickness the top, back and sides; glue the braces with hide/fish glue after determining their placement, carve them, and tap tune the plates. Factories do not do this, so that is where I invest my time. I can buy the car if I choose, but I build the engine. That is good enough for me. (I look forward to the day I can save the money to work with John Watkins, and a professional finisher)

Jeff