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OK, I've now got a bottle of fish glue sitting in the cupboard. I know what instructions it gives on the bottle but can any of the fish glue experienced (that means you Joshua, Shawn, David!) give me some expert guidance on it's likes/dislikes, properties, clean-up etc.

I still plan to use HHG for my plate joining, braces, bridge etc, but this looks ideal for many of the other large area jobs.

Colin

Colin S39086.3874305556

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I don't believe in anything, I simply make use of a set of reasonable working hypotheses.

I'm with Colin here, I want to try some fish glue on the next guitar, still a little leary though....hoping to hear some expert comments to help with the decision.

Thanks,
Greg

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Gwaltney Guitars

I was skeptical of it when I attended the Romanillos class but dealt with it the same as HHG in every respect except of not having to rush to get things together like with HHG.

Once dried it has the same hard crystalized appearance and feel as HHG. Cleanup is very easy. At the Romanillos class we kept open bottles of it and it did not "skin" over as much as Titebond. It will crust up around a nozzle of a glue bottle but was surprisingly easy to work with.

One big caveat and that is that like HHG it is hydroscopic so it absorbs moisture from the air so in a very humid climate it would never work. One person in the class from Taiwan that had a tropical humid environment could not use it.

It has up to about a minute open time so I am able to line up parts and get cramps set without having to hurry.

It surpassed all of my expectations and I was rerally amazed at how well it can be used. I still keep around HHG and even though i have a suspicion that HHG is somehow better, there is no application in which fish glue did not equal HHG (at least so far).

I know it would be a lot of work, but I'd like to propose a test to those of you who have both HHG and FG in your arsenal.

Put a daub of both glues on a piece of glass or plastic and let them dry. At the same time, flatten a couple of small pieces of wood for each glue type, glue 'em together, and let 'em dry. Find or create a humid environment (say, 85-95 percent RH) that will hold the glass and wood pieces, leave them in there for an hour, and note how, or if, each type of glue is affected. For instance, did one, both, or neither glue melt or turn slimey on the glass? Did the joined pieces come apart? Was one affected more than the other by the humidity? Something like this might go a long way in determining the efficacy of FG compared to HHG. What thinkest thou?

I also have a new gallon of fish glue, after reading previous posts. I'm going to see what develops on this thread, but I think I'll do some experiments next week on Titebond (which I'm currently using) vs the fish glue. I have to break the gallon down into smaller containers next week, so it'll be a good time to try some experiments.

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Gene

Politicians and diapers must be changed often, and for the same reason- Mark Twain

When my new apprentice starts toward the end of winter glue tests will be
one of the things high on my priority list for him. I've been planning them
for over a year, but haven't found the time. I'll be testing at least a dozen
glues to start with, each for cold break, cold creep, and then break and
creep under heat, humidity and a combination of the two, and
reversibility. I've already cut up at least a hundred 1" x 3/4" x 4" pieces of
rock maple, although I'm sure I'll need a few hundred more for the
project. I'm really trying to keep this as tightly controlled as possible. At
this point I'll probably use two samples for each adhesive under each test,
each marked and coded by someone not arranging the tests or analyzing
the results. I'm trying to set up the heat/humidity chamber to get as
consistant an environment throughout as possible, and will probably be
using a mass load (like small sand bags) as opposed to springs for
pressure.

Although this will certainly be short of what I would call ideal scientific
testing, I'll be doing my best to keep it as controlled and objective as
possible. It's been in the planning for quite some time, and although I
would like to get it done as soon as possible I think that by the end of the
year is a realistic goal for me. I'll do my best to document everything from
glue manufacture date and batch codes to application, testing, clamping
of test pieces, direction of force, etc. I know full well that as I get in to it
I'll have to cut some corners to make it affordable in money and time
(unless someone wants to write up a grant for me ), but I'll do my
best to keep it as well controlled as possible. Don't be too dissapointed if
the level of testing ends up falling far short of my ambitions though.

It will be quite time consuming because simply forcing something to
immediate failure is not very representative of it's real world performance.
Pretty much any glue show a clean rupture of the wood it you just glue it
up and break it. I want to be able to leave samples under conditions
somewhere between realistic extremes and point of certain failure for
amounts of time I have yet to determine. I'm hoping 24-48 hours would
be sufficient for most, but many tests (like cold creep for example) will
certainly have to be much longer term. I'm sure some of the testing will
be done in increments of heat and humidity, notched up bit by bit to see
at what level each one drops off.

Then that will be just the beginning. From those results I want to play
with different gram strengths, mixtures of hide glue, fish glue, pure fish
gelatin, rabbit skin glue, aluminum sulfate, ferrous sulfate, polyvinyl
alchohol mixtures, over heated hide glue, post-shelf life glues, etc. I
know I already have realistic expectations (which is part of the reason I
want the tests to be done blind) as to a lot of the results, but I think this
is something that needs to be done. Ideally I would like to get a system
set up so that I could keep pieces in testing constantly with minimal effort
until I get bored with it.

As to your questions about fish glue though, I've used it for years and
haven't seen any serious drawbacks. The biggest ones I've found have
been the long clamping time necessary, and the minor nuisance of the
stringy, tacky threads of glue that seem to follow everywhere you touch.
I've heard a few complaints about humidity resistance, but I've put
instruments through hell and never personally seen any sign of problems.
As of now that's about all I can really say about it. It's been my main wood
glue for several years, and probably will be for the forseeable future. The
biggest advantages are it's hard cure, heat resistance, creep resistance
(PVAs like titebond will always be somewhat prone to cold creep), and it's
extremely long working time.

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Eschew obfuscation, espouse elucidation.

Whne I built my first in cocobolo ears ago, i was concerned about how titebond would work ont eh oily wood ... a violin amker told me about fish glue, and how he used it for a host of repairs. So I bought some, and did a test on two glue ups form thesame coco board - the fish was much better - the titebond broke right across the bond, taking almost no fibres with it - the fish glue took mostly fibres to break it. For coco anyway, its all I use.

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Tony Karol
www.karol-guitars.com
"let my passion .. fulfill yours"

Shawn, does (did) Romanillos use fish glue on his master guitars, for instance the one Julian Bream used?

[QUOTE=David Collins] The biggest ones I've found have
been the long clamping time necessary, and the minor nuisance of the
stringy, tacky threads of glue that seem to follow everywhere you touch.
[/QUOTE]

That's about the worst I've seen while using Fish Glue so far. The long sticky filaments. True my experience is very limited but I love the stuff. It doesn't clean up as well as HHG, but maybe I was trying to clean up too quickly.

How long do you experienced users wait before cleaning up?

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I'd like to be able to prove, just for once, that money wouldn't make me happy...

I did some very basic tests yesterday, gluing spruce to spruce, hardwood to hardwood and spruce to hardwood. 24hrs later, not only are all the joints very secure and virtually invisible but clean up was simple and open time allowed an unhurried process. I shall use it for joining tops and backs to rims and stuff like headplates, neck and heel blocks. Clamping time is not a problem, and I don't believe that normal humidity is either, though I shall test the pieces I've done by keeping them in the bathroom for a bit.

Might even try it for bindings, but I do have a system for using HHG on them.

Colin   

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I don't believe in anything, I simply make use of a set of reasonable working hypotheses.

When I took the Romanillos course and we were using the fish glue in 2001, it was Gerhard Oldiges who reccomended and supplied the fish glue. At that time Jose seemed to already have quite a bit of experience and confidence in it, and we treated it basically like titebond.

I asked Gerhard for a source, and he told me he got his from a local piano maker or repairer in Germany, but that the stuff Kremer pigments sells is very clse or exactly the same.

I don't know if the Lee Valley stuff is the same as the stuff I am using from Kremer, but people are posting some experiences that are different from mine, and treating it differently then how we did on the course and how I have ever since.

It is very high tack and seems to have the same tendency as HHG to draw pieces together as it shrinks, though not quite to the same extent. It does not require more than an hour of clamping pressure, and actually creates a very strong bond within minutes of clamping. The high tack is very useful for the gobar deck, so braces dont slide around once placed.

I have one bottle that has been sitting here for over two years, and I cannot make any discernable difference between old and new in breaking a finished joint.

The stuff I have also is very handy because like hide glue, to reglue something you do not need to remove all the glue, since adding more glue "reactivates" the old glue - making for easily repairable joints. This also makes it useful for rosette making.

Like I said, I don't know if the Lee Valley stuff is different, but based on my different experiences I would guess that it is.

The Kremer stuff is made in Germany.

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Instagram: @jfrenchluthier
Web: https://www.jfrenchguitars.com/

Also - Fish glue was reccomended by makers I trust, who have reported great success with it and no problems. Its apparently been used in the piano industry for quite some time. This will be my sixth year working with it, and I've yet to have a single issue. I have nothing but confidence in it.

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Instagram: @jfrenchluthier
Web: https://www.jfrenchguitars.com/

Two links with a bit of info:

Norland Fish Glue

Kremer Fish Glue

A different pH value and mention of preservatives for the Kremer stuff, but the same solid and water content. Couldn't find a number on density for the Norland.

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Instagram: @jfrenchluthier
Web: https://www.jfrenchguitars.com/

Thanks Joshua, it is the Lee Valley stuff I have got. It seems to be pretty good, but I will get some of the Kremer glue over and do a comparison. However, judging from the results with in my basic tests of the Lee Valley fish glue, I would be quite confident in using it.

When I glued the test pieces in the Go-bar, it produced very fine joints that have resisted my attempts to break them at the joint.

High humidity is never a problem here and I don't play the guitar in the bath, so there shouldn't be any problems with water resistance.

When I took the back off of a 1780s London made guitar it had the definite smell of fish glue, that was removed with a warm, wet knife. And I asked the piano tech at the RCM about it and he says that top line pianos are glued with it as the open time for gluing large pieces of wood is so much better than HHG. So, he uses both, but finds it much easier to take a bottle of fish glue around that a glue boiler and hot water for the HHG! He uses Lee Valley fish glue.

Life is one long learning curve that doesn't get any shallower the older you get!

ColinColin S39087.5140625

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I don't believe in anything, I simply make use of a set of reasonable working hypotheses.

Colin,

I'd trust it.

I suppose what I am trying to say, is that the skepticism about it is unwarranted, and even the possible issues that have been raised barely require any attention (including shelf life, clamping time, etc - in my experience).

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Instagram: @jfrenchluthier
Web: https://www.jfrenchguitars.com/

I've been a proponent of the stuff for a number of years, but there have
been a few legitimate concerns brought up. There are at least two people
I can recall who both seem to be respectable builders and have posted
problems with humidity. I would nor could contest thier results, because I
obviously was not there when the problems occured. In my personal
experience with my dew covered, rained on camping guitar and cutoffs
run through the wash in my pockets, as well of 3-4 years of full time
repairs since I adopted it as my main glue I have never seen any sign of
problems with humidity resistance.

On the other hand, I have found much longer clamping times to be
necessary. One time in particular I rushed a bridge reglue and tried to
unclamp and string it up within 2-3 hours of glueing and the back pulled
up. The way that fish glue binds so tenaciously to non-porous materials,
along with it's safety on old finishes make it an ideal choice for binding
reglues. However, here as well I have found them likely to pull loose again
if the tape or clamps are removed too soon. I leave wood to wood joints
clamped at least 6 hours, with 12-24 before putting under stress, and
leave porous to non-porous joints clamped for 12-24 hours. Remember
that there are three main categories of glue curing: chemical, thermal and
evaporative. Fish glue relies purely on evaporative curing, so however
long it takes all the moisture to escape is how long it takes to dry. If you
really want to be picky about it the actual bonding probably continues to
a very small degree for several days. For practical purposes though, dry is
good enough. Still, it's tackiness is so quick that I have used it for rub
joints when joining spruce, koa and mahogany plates with great results,
as well as for cleating cracks.

I've also noticed a difference in the glue over time. I buy fresh direct from
Norland, and the fresh glue has an incredible stringiness that will stretch
silk like strands to and from everywhere the glue touches. As it gets older
this stringiness seems to noticably lessen - I've noticed it as early as 6-9
months if left unrefrigerated. Of course I only keep a small bottle at room
temperature and jars to refill from in the fridge, but I still replace it at
least once a year. It may also be worth noting that the humidity related
problems above were both using fish glue repackaged by Lee Valley, and I
have speculated they may buy more than they can sell in short time and
some may be getting old glue if it was packed at the end of a batch. This
is only a guess, but it was all I could think of to explain those seemingly
isolated problems I've heard.

Keep in mind I've been endorsing this as my favorite all around glue for
instruments for years, and my criticisms are an largely attempt to play
devil's advocate (or traditionalist's advocate ). Still I'm a skeptic by
nature and like to include all possible shortcomings I know of along with
the benefits. I personally think it's incredible stuff, and the benefits of
long working time (especially in repairs) has far outweighed the longer
clamping time in comparison to hide glues.
David Collins39087.5702083333

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Eschew obfuscation, espouse elucidation.

Thanks Joshua, David, I'll try the Lee Valley on my current build, as I said the RCM piano tech like it and he's working on concert instruments. I had a word with David Hume today and he also uses the Lee Valley glue.

In the 18th century the fish glue and hide glue would have been very basic. Boil up the fish skins/hides evaporate off the excess water, what's left is the glue. I oversimplify, but they didn't do any detailed analysis and the instruments are still holding together having gone through 200+ years of changing seasons. OK they didn't have hot cars to leave the guitar in but neither did they have de-humidifiers and airconditioning. Sometimes I think we overcomplicate simple things just because we can.

I'll still get some Kremer to try it though. At 19Euro a kilo you could use it on 2 guitars and throw the rest round the roses and it would still be cheap.

As I said what I'm trying to do is find an animal glue for the longer time frame jobs without having to set fire to the guitar, (which I still intend trying!)

Colin

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I don't believe in anything, I simply make use of a set of reasonable working hypotheses.

My friend and former shopmate David Sutherland uses it as well, and since
his new shop is all of two blocks from mine we often split gallons ordered
from Norland. He is a leading builder and restorator of harpsichords and
early fortepianos. He has actually found fish glue listed in significant
quantities in purchase records from the shop of Bartolomeo Cristofori in the
early 18th century.

On a side note about burning things, although this was not used for
keeping glue heated he has told me stories of burned and scorched innards
of flemish harpsichord sides. Apparently tossing them on a fire was an early
method of heating a side to be bent.

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Eschew obfuscation, espouse elucidation.

What is the best way to clean up fish glue?
-j.

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“If God dwells inside us like some people say, I sure hope He likes enchiladas, because that's what He's getting”
-jack handy

It cleans up with water, although it certainly doesn't clean as nearly as easy
as gelled hide glue. It's not difficult to clean, but it does leave a very thin
tacky film on a finish if you wipe it around that takes a little more than
titebond does to clean it off. Still, it's not a big deal. It can also seem to
cause a strange blushing that I haven't seen with any other glues as you
clean it off, but it always disappears by the time the glue is dry.

_________________
Eschew obfuscation, espouse elucidation.

[QUOTE=David Collins] When my new apprentice starts toward the end of winter glue tests will be
one of the things high on my priority list for him.[/QUOTE]
Excellent, David!!! Your results should be quite informative, so thanks for doing the work.

[QUOTE=David Collins]I want to play
with...mixtures of hide glue, fish glue, pure fish
gelatin, rabbit skin glue, aluminum sulfate, ferrous sulfate, polyvinyl
alchohol mixtures...etc.[/QUOTE]
Oatmeal--you forgot oatmeal. It seems to bond to anything (ceramic, stainless steel, carpet) and is virtually insoluable once dry.

Thank you all for the great information.
I just ordered some Lee Valley fish glue, and a few other items I just had to have.

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"An adventure is only an inconvenience rightly considered. An inconvenience is an adventure wrongly considered." G. K. Chesterton.

I just received my fish glue from Kremer in Germany. On an initial comparison with the Lee Valley glue they seem to be similar in viscocity, colour and smell. I'll try some of the Kremer tonight and see how it goes. Kremer supply in 250ml bottles and in 1kg bottles. They claim a shelf life of 5 years.



ColinColin S39092.2708680556

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I don't believe in anything, I simply make use of a set of reasonable working hypotheses.

Fish glue just seems like a natural to me for any instrument that can be used to play scales. That would eliminate tamborines, drums, and really cool things like wash board and thimbles but it should work well for guitars.

Just my thoughts on the subject