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Sorry all. I didn't mean to sound short or grumpy. I'm very much a facts and figures sort of thinker. Comes from my training as an avionics tech in the military, and my part time studies in engineering. I guess I envisioned this course like most courses I've done in the past, "Do it this way. Do it that way. No room for variation or someone'll get killed" type of thing. From what Hesh, Brock and Andrew have said the course sounds like it teached guitar building in a holistic (is that the correct word?) or organic way. Am I on the right path now?

Again, sorry if I sounded short.

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If God had wanted us to drink beer, he would have given us stomaches.

[QUOTE=Joel] Sorry all. I didn't mean to sound short or grumpy. I'm very much a facts and figures sort of thinker. Comes from my training as an avionics tech in the military, and my part time studies in engineering. I guess I envisioned this course like most courses I've done in the past, "Do it this way. Do it that way. No room for variation or someone'll get killed" type of thing. From what Hesh, Brock and Andrew have said the course sounds like it teached guitar building in a holistic (is that the correct word?) or organic way. Am I on the right path now?

Again, sorry if I sounded short.

[/QUOTE]

There is some rigor to it, but it is in the methodology not the outcome. The process builds in allowances for the fact that every piece of wood is different.

But there is definitely some general principles to follow. Before going I thought it was going to be learning an "art" and it was going to be a very soft process, but it turned out to be much more structured than I expected.

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Brock Poling
Columbus, Ohio
http://www.polingguitars.com

I just got home from Ervin's class as well, a long red-eye, I'm very tired but wanted to add some of my own thoughts to the mix. This class has changed my whole perspective on building guitars, I have a much keener/clearer sense about the hows and whys of building a guitar to a desired end or result. Ervin takes you down a very specific, measured path, which enables one to ingest/digest just the right amount of info in a day. Ervin is a wealth of knowledge only realized through years of trial and error, I truly believe there are things learned in this class I that most likely would have never stumbled upon. Hesh is right by the way, I wouldn't even try to explain the contents of the class, geez I'm still sorting it all out now and expect that to continue for years to come. A thought-provocking lesson in thinking outside the box.

By the way it was cool to meet Andy and Steve S from this forum and the other classmates as well, there were many great lessons learned from the interactions away from the class itself, a great week that may very well change the way you think about luthiery.

Cheers,
Greg

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Gwaltney Guitars

[QUOTE=Colin S] ...when you step back and look at the bigger picture that it becomes round[/QUOTE]
Actually, it's a conglomeration of compound radii, like a guitar. Hmmmmmmm...............

[QUOTE=CarltonM] [QUOTE=Colin S] ...when you step back and look at the bigger picture that it becomes round[/QUOTE]
Actually, it's a conglomeration of compound radii, like a guitar. Hmmmmmmm............... [/QUOTE]

As I said, "to a first order estimation"

Colin

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I don't believe in anything, I simply make use of a set of reasonable working hypotheses.

[QUOTE=Colin S] [QUOTE=CarltonM] [QUOTE=Colin S] ...when you step back and look at the bigger picture that it becomes round[/QUOTE]
Actually, it's a conglomeration of compound radii, like a guitar. Hmmmmmmm............... [/QUOTE]

As I said, "to a first order estimation"

Colin[/QUOTE]

First order approximations (Taylor) are linear, you need H.O.T. for round.

Oops I'm wrong, it is first in spherical coord.

A few practical questions for the Somogyi alumni...

1) How would you define and describe the sound of a Somogyi guitar?

2) How would that sound compare to guitars made by other established and well known luthiers?

3) How would you compare the sound of your guitars made before taking the course to those made a year or more after taking the course? (Tim and Brock here)

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JJ
Napa, CA
http://www.DonohueGuitars.com

JJ,

I'll give it a shot.

First of all you would have to understand what sound Ervin is looking for in the particular guitar your listening to, that of course can vary depending on the customer desires. But in general I would say that the Somogyi guitar is OPEN & BIG sounding, there is a wonderful feel of presence in the room from the guitar. It seems that every string is doing it's job at optimal levels, an enveloping quality abounds. I guess it's like everything else, some may not like the tone as much as something else, I for one really enjoyed listening to and playing his guitars. I wouldn't compare his guitars to any other builder as I felt they were very different than anything I've heard.....Hope this helps

Cheers,
Greg

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Gwaltney Guitars

I find it hard to describe others guitar's, but I can tell you that ES's guitars have a very big, alive sound.

My post Somogyi guitars have sounded great. By comparison like the prior guitars had rags stuffed in them. They are just so much more alive and "crisp" (sorry for the soft language). I really like them.

I think it comes from the philosophy of lightening everything (except the rims) up and the revised thinking about brace placement and shaving.

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Brock Poling
Columbus, Ohio
http://www.polingguitars.com

Thanks, Greg...good info. One of the many areas where I feel lacking is my inexperience in listening to and evaluating guitars made by master builders...especially in an A:B setting. I hope to attend ASIA this year and am looking forward to expanding that experience. Until then, it's always informative to know what others hear.

I'm also looking forward to having Tim and Brock chime in. In particular, I'd like to know how they characterize their sound before and after taking the course... as well as how others may have evaluated them in a blind test. It's such a subjective part of the process but the more we listen, the better informed we are to define the sound that we are seeking.

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JJ
Napa, CA
http://www.DonohueGuitars.com

I can tell you that EVERYONE who does a side by side comparison of my post somogyi guiars and my pre guitars can tell a noticable difference and prefers the guitars I built with these new ideas incorporated.

They really are a lot better.

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Brock Poling
Columbus, Ohio
http://www.polingguitars.com

Impressive, Brock! I'd love to hear one of each in a blind test. Just a thought, but...would a sound clip show such differences? If you post a sound clip just identify each with a random designation and minmize the variables. If it's as dramatic as you say...I'm sold!

How long after the course were you able to hone your new skills and see an appreciable difference? How many have you built the new way and is it a gradual improvement or dramatic coming out of the post-Somogyi gate?

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JJ
Napa, CA
http://www.DonohueGuitars.com

Simultaneous post...again!

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JJ
Napa, CA
http://www.DonohueGuitars.com

[QUOTE=JJ Donohue] One of the many areas where I feel lacking is my inexperience in listening to and evaluating guitars made by master builders...especially in an A:B setting. I hope to attend ASIA this year and am looking forward to expanding that experience. [/QUOTE]

JJ, have you ever been to an ASIA Symposium? I don't mean to sound like a kvetch, because I have gotten so much out of attending these ASIA shindigs and the GAL conventions, and there's a lot of good things to say about them. However, I have been disappointed by the LACK of opportunity to listen to the guitars of master builders at these events. The exhibit halls are way too noisy and there have never been listening rooms provided (at least, not since I've been attending). The "listening sessions" that are often held have not been much of a help IMHO: almost all of the guitars brought to these are made by novices, and the sessions have generally not been conducted in a controlled way to really give us the opportunity for serious listening and comparison (I don't mean comparison as in better or worse, just comparitive listening for a heightened awareness and understanding of the differences). The session led by Ervin at the last GAL convention was a big step in the right direction, IMO, but, again, very few guitars by master builders were there to be heard.

If you go to the ASIA web site (guitarmaker.org), go to the forum, go to the Flat Top category, and look at a topic started by Ervin (see? I haven't really hijacked this thread, because I'm still talking about Ervin    ) called "Listening tests", you'll see how I've been clamoring for a change. Bill Moll (ASIA director) was open to trying something new, but, understandably, asked for my active involvement to make it happen, which I had to bow out of, because I won't be able to attend the Symposium this time around.

What I'm getting to is that I would strongly encourage you and anyone else who would like to be able to do some serious listening to the guitars of the "masters" to speak up, get involved, and try to make something like this happen. Maybe it could still be done at this year's ASIA Symposium.

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Todd Rose
Ithaca, NY

https://www.dreamingrosesecobnb.com/todds-art-music

https://www.facebook.com/ToddRoseGuitars/