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[QUOTE=lex_luthier] Why fly a kite when you can pop a pill? I mean really, let's be honest here, if you're not thicknessing your back and side sets with your fingernails then you're pretty much a complete fraud.

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   Ah, now that is sooo true! Touche, Lex!

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I'd like to be able to prove, just for once, that money wouldn't make me happy...

Somebody brought up the violin bridge: it's not considered part of the violin proper, but rather a 'fitting', like the pegs and tailpiece, that must be replaced from time to time. for that matter, the fingerboard, and even the neck (but not the scroll) on a violin is considered to be replaceable. Stuff that wears out has to be replaced: you would not take it amiss if you bought a Torres with new frets, although you'd like to be told that was the case.

Again, although the term 'handmade' is still used, what it generally means in practice is 'idividually made', at least as regards the 'important' parts. Part of the quibble is over what's 'important'; what counts as a commodity, in the same sense that frets and machines do. These days, many people accept that finishing, particularly sprayed finishes, require special equipment and skills, and that to expect every luthier to aquire those is not reasonable. Nor does it make any difference in the completed product where the finish was sprayed, or by whom, except that a 'pro' will most likely do a better job. Spray finishes have become a commodity.

Inlay seems to be rapidly going the same way. We can argue about whether one aspect or another of construction 'should' be commodified, but that won't stop the pressure for doing so. Ultimately, it's the customers who will decide these things.

Al, you've really got to get to that book. I just like the way you write. And maybe it's a bit of vanity coming through because I think you hit the nail on the head.

Torres thinks Al is oldschool. One time, armed with only a #5 smoother, Al shaved a live grizzly without getting cut.

Shouldn't the focus be on building the best sounding and playing guitar you can (at a certain price)? That's my only concern with an instrument. I'm don't want to sell romance, I want to sell a great guitar. If there's a way I can deliver it faster or less expensively to the customer without sacrificing quality, I'll use it because that's my job.

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Bob Garrish
Former Canonized Purveyor of Fine CNC Luthier Services

Just so there's no confusion, that last paragraph is unconnected to Al being oldschool and expresses no disdain for it.

Al builds the way he does because he likes working that way, and that's a great reason to do everything by hand. The difference between that and some other posts here is that I've never gotten a hint of the idea of an impression (in a couple hundred hours of time with him) that he has any disdain or disrespect for anyone using technology to make their guitars more consistent or more efficiently.

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Bob Garrish
Former Canonized Purveyor of Fine CNC Luthier Services

Interesting to note that in Spain, most luthiers send their instruments out to specialists for finishing. In the old "guild" system, instrument makers were prohibited from doing their own finishing as that was the work of the finishing guild. If I could afford to send out my guitars for French Polishing, I would probably do so. Our local expert, Cyndi Burton (she does Jeffry Elliotts guitars) charges $1,000 and takes 6 weeks to take a guitar in the white to finished French Polish - she also sets an incredibly high bar for finishing standards. I have more time than money, so I do it myself and rather enjoy the 40 hours or so of working time (plus all those long weeks of proper gassing out and drying. Whatever work for you is OK I believe.

This topic has gotten way to far off topic for my personal liking.

All you who want to banter the handmade issue take it to another topic

Poor John has to weed through all this just to get his answers

John, I personally like to finish my self at the time. The cost to send out for finish for me would be considerably more because I don't know or trust anyone locally here to do a guitar finish and buff so i would have way to much headache with the boarder issue.

But if I had a source which was relatively close by I would consider out-sourcing, even though I have explosion proof fans, a very good full face respirator and a good filter system already set up, it would clear up some space in the 185 sft shop.

Cost is relatively inexpensive once your set up, it's really the compressor and fume extraction that costs a lot, the rest is very minor cost IMO.

Time is the other factor of course but if it were about paying myself I would never build guitars because the day job will always pay considerably more than guitar building ever will for me I'm sure.

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"There's really no wrong way, as long as the results are what's desired." Charles Fox

"We have to constantly remind ourselves what we're doing....No Luthier is putting a man on the moon!" Harry Fleishman

"Generosity is always different in the eye of the person who didn't receive anything, but who wanted some." Waddy Thomson

Whoops, thought it was John Elshaw who started the topic. Sorry Af_one (who may have lost interest already)

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My Facebook Guitar Page

"There's really no wrong way, as long as the results are what's desired." Charles Fox

"We have to constantly remind ourselves what we're doing....No Luthier is putting a man on the moon!" Harry Fleishman

"Generosity is always different in the eye of the person who didn't receive anything, but who wanted some." Waddy Thomson