Official Luthiers Forum!

    Paul Woolson raises a very important point in his post above. It always
amazes me that when peopleview paintings and sculpture, they are very
understanding and tolerant of the technique and interpretive sensitivity of
the artist.

    When I look at the work of some artists who are revered, respected and
have commanded prices in the millions for paintings I have a tough time
understanding the viewer's desire to pay for it, but the beauty and value
lie, most impotantly in the eye of the beholder. I love art and expression
and certainly understand interpretation of subject matter, but also
understand variations in technique and method and respect the artist's
use of them.

     A customer need to be familiar with your work before they secure and
agree to a commission. If they are not, they need to be ready to receive
your instrument, built to your typical specs and with all of your regular
input. Thay can not receive a guitar from you and then complain that it
doesn't have the purfling lines that they saw on an Olson or the rosette
that they saw on a Ryan or the finish that they saw on another builder's
work. If they say that the fit and finish aren;t the same as the Traugott
they'd played a while ago....they needed to buy the Traugott when they
were playing it.

    Your work is unique to you and your level of experience ad every
customer needs to understand that and accept it. I know of one builder
who has built hundreds of guitars and is held up as one of the great
traditional style builders in the world, yet his guitars still find their way to
the marketplace built very sloppily and carelessly. They exhibit
workmanship that would have prevented me from shipping a guitar even
in my first ten or so, but people buy them and wait for them and are
happy with them when they get them.

    That closes the door on his situation.If the customers are happy and
understand what they are getting, everybody is where they need to be at
the end of the transaction.

    Just keep building without trying to build copies of guitars from ther
builders. That's what's happening with alot of young builders coming up.
You appear to have great creative talent and you'll have no trouble
making people happy with the guitars you build in the future.

Have fun and enjoy the growing process,
Kevin Gallagher/Omega Guitars


    

I understand exactly how you feel. A few years ago I had a customer return one of my guitars as "unplayable" - no discussion, he just sent it back while I was away on vacation, as I had already told him I would be. 3 days later he sent me a number of emails threatening to sue me if I didn't refund his money in full.

When I finally collected the guitar from the shipper, who hadn't been able to deliver it because I was away, I took it out of the box, played a bit of slide, did a bit of fingerpicking etc. Heaven only knows how anyone can describe a guitar that I can play with ease as "unplayable". I'm lousy at playing keyboards, but it's not the keyboard's fault ...

I was quite tempted to go to court with it, but in the end I decided he wasn't worth the hassle. It still rankles, though, and my confidence took a knock for a while but I've had enough happy customers before and since then to know that the problem wasn't one of my making. Every time someone thanks me or compliments me I put two fingers up to my awkward customer.

So whatever you do, don't give up just because you've encountered someone who doesn't seem to understand the realities of hand building. Every guitar I make is better than the one before and the day they stop being better is the day I'll stop building.

_________________
Pete
http://www.petewoodmanguitars.com

It's all been said, and better here than I can say...just let me say that I agree with the others...DON'T QUIT!!!!!!! You have a gift most surely...and even when you're putting your 90th guitar in the mail you'll still have that buyer every so often that has an instrument in his mind that no luthier could deliver!

_________________
http://www.presnallguitars.com

It is soooo comforting to know that *almost* everyone has run into customers that search for perfection in all the wrong places...I really like the idea of the guitar as art, and as such does not lend itself to flaws, but to *character*...I am not going to stop building (I think I was a little dramatic when I first started ranting since I was frazzled) and it is in large part to the support that I received from all of you...I even got a PM from someone in regard to my post (thanks again Kevin).
I have taken in everyones' responses and I am very thankful...The customer cannot build a guitar...but he will critique as if he has been building for centuries (that is hilarious to me)..keep a sense of humor I guess and take these *perfectionists* with a grain of salt.

Very good advice y'all...you have done a great service.

Terry, get ready for this...the information I am about to write is very technical and may not be understood by all...

THe pics were taken with: 1 white sheet, 1 digital camera (7 megapixel), 1 cooking pot (to hold the guitar up under the sheet), 2 clamps (to attach the sheet to a fence), and 1 overcast day.

Very professional, huh??

Thanks again everyone.

I only build classical guitars and know well how particular a customer can be. I tend to be far more critical than any one else has been about my guitars and spend far too much time making sure that everything is as good as I want it to be.

As I am a disciple of Jose Romanillos I have one of his quotes framed in my shop "all of my guitars are masterpieces until they are done and strung up...only then will I know if I succeeded". He also likes to tell people in his class that it is not whether you make a mistake, it is about how you recover from it.

He showed me one guitar in which he had made a number of fixes for things that had not gone right while building and yet there was a concert guitarist who would always play a vintage Santos Hernandez and when he heard Jose's guitar (with all of the imperfections) he said it was the best guitar he had ever heard and wanted it for an upcoming tour...

One of the other people whom I respect tremendously that also attended Jose's class in Spain is Joshua French. His guitars are immaculate but what I learned from him was interesting... check out his website at www.frenchguitars.com...

Then read the transcript between him and one of his customers as he kept them up to date as to the state of the guitar as it was being built at http://www.portland-or.com/issa/. It is a textbook on how to set expectations while also keeping the customer excited about how the guitar is coming out.

Jose inspired me to always build a masterpiece (at least that is the intent) while assuring me that things that dont go right can always be redone or fixed.

What I picked up from Joshua was that by keeping in touch with the customer all along the way, you can set expectations and keep the focus on the sound, how the build is coming, all of the things that pre-dispose the customer to accept the instrument when it is done.

There is still be difficult customers but what makes a guitar builder a master luthier is that a master luthier has not quit and has kept on building and keeps on getting better.

Your killing me Hesh...The wrinkles add charm...and yes I will be bothering all of you on this forum more frequently (it is actually a bit addicting).
Shawn, I agree with what you say. I myself strive to build a masterpiece and make the guitar the best that I can. However, my skills sometimes fall short of my expectations and imperfections are the result. I like what you said about recovering from mistakes. Very important.

Kris,

I too, am glad to hear your not quitting! It would have been a shame to lose such a fine craftsman
as yourself from the guitar building community.

So, good luck! I’m sure you will do well!

Robert

_________________
Everything has beauty, But, not everyone see's it!

[QUOTE=Kristopher10]


 the information I am about to write is very technical and may not be understood by all...



THe pics were taken with: 1 white sheet, 1 digital camera (7 megapixel), 1 cooking pot (to hold the guitar up under the sheet), 2 clamps (to attach the sheet to a fence), and 1 overcast day.



Very professional, huh??



Thanks again everyone.





[/QUOTE]

Wow, I don't know about all the rest of you guys but this went completely over my head!  Can you break this down so the non-professionals among us can understand it?

I just finished an OM that I am just about to photograph.  I guess I need to iron the sheet too.  That and maybe blow the sawdust off of it, or does the sawdust add charm too?

As for unreasonable customers, I own an electrical service contracting business and every so often I get those customers that no matter what you will never please them.  I think that some people think that since they are paying money for your service, they own you for that time.  They take that belief as license to pick apart everything you do whether their criticism is legitimate or not.  In my field, this is always demonstrated by them standing over my shoulder telling me how to do my job. Maybe I am getting to be a grumpy old man, but I have taken the attitude that I have been doing this for close to 30 years now.  I don't need someone who owns the 'Time Life Basic Wiring' book explaining to me how to do my job.  I politely but firmly tell them that I work much better without and audience which translates into a faster and ultimately less costly repair.  If that doesn't work I step it up a notch and, again politely, ask them if they knew how to fix it, why did they call me to waste my time?  I have only one time in 30 years had to go to step three which was to pick up my tools and walk out telling them to do it themelves.

I guess what I am trying to say is if they knew how to build a guitar they would do it themselves.  Even though you only have 9 guitars under your belt (which #9 looks like #90 in my opinion ) you are the professional in that situation.  The customer has a right to expect a guitar that reflects the skill level of a builder who is building #9, as long as they knew that this was your ninth build up front.  If he is expecting the perfection of someone who has built 200 guitars, then he is the one out of line and he needs to know that. 

Like I said in my earlier post, take his criticisms as constructive. Tuck them under your hat and pull them out for the next build.  You are obviously a very talented builder who just happened to stumble upon an unreasonable customer early on in your career.  Some people get lucky and don't get those until much later on when they are a lot more confident in their skills and can defend them better.

Kris - Now that it has been pretty well established that there is no way you should quit, and that your guitar is quite striking , I wanted to ask about the diagonal back brace visible through the soundhole in the first picture. What's with that? (I hope I'm not re-asking the question - I didn't see it go by in the discussion above).

Jim

_________________
Jim Kirby
kirby@udel.edu

That is one beautiful guitar!!!!!
We all have similar stories about problem customers. Perhaps it is that as we put our heart and soul into our work that we don't respond well to criticism.
You do beautiful work and don't let this take the wind out of your sails!
Happy Building!

I wonder if the customer was not happy with the sound of the guitar?

I run into customers (in my real job) who complain about small things when they don't like the product itself, because it gives them an opportunity to reject the service/product. At this point, incremental change to address the small issues defects does not help, because the customer is not happy with the product/service in general. 

Instead of saying they don't like the sound (which might not allow him to return), they start complaining about the finish, nicks, frets and etc, hoping that will get them off the hook?

I bet that $12,000 Olson was returned becasue the owner was not happy with the sound, rather than the 1/8" knot o the back. However, the knot was used as a reason to return it. 

[QUOTE=davidmor]
[QUOTE=Kristopher10]
THe pics were taken with: 1 white sheet, 1 digital camera (7 megapixel), 1 cooking pot (to hold the guitar up under the sheet), 2 clamps (to attach the sheet to a fence), and 1 overcast day. [/QUOTE]
Wow, I don't know about all the rest of you guys but this went completely over my head!  Can you break this down so the non-professionals among us can understand it?[/QUOTE]
I agree! What was the thread count of the sheet? How many quarts does the cooking pot hold? Is it lidded or unlidded? What kind of clamps were used? Was the fence wooden or wire? What's this "pixel" I keep hearing about? I need help!!!

Chiming in a bit late, here...

First thing I want to say is I love your headstock crest! I don't have an encyclopedia of classical guitar headstock crests in my head, but I don't recall ever seeing one quite like that, and I think it's one of the most graceful I've ever seen. Bravo!! Overall, it's a very, very lovely looking guitar.

Second, I really appreciate the thoughtful and insightful comments several people have made in this thread. I've gotten a lot out of it myself.

Third, I never presume to know how skillfully a guitar is made, when it comes to the details, from looking at photos, even close-ups. You just can't really tell from photos. I am a perfectionist; I have a sharp eye for detail; I aim for the very highest standards of workmanship in my own work; and here's the key point: I wouldn't commission a guitar from you unless I had examined and played at least one of your guitars and was satisfied that you could build one that would meet my scrutiny and my needs and desires as a player (no matter how low the price). If I felt your work wasn't up to the standard I was looking for, as a fellow craftsman I would offer you constructive criticism if you wanted it.   If, on the other hand, I was completely happy with the level of your work, and I commissioned a guitar from you, and then the finished instrument wasn't up to the standard of the one you had showed me, then I would feel I had valid reason to complain.
     In this case, it sounds to me like your customer wasn't really complaining, but intending to give you constructive criticism to help you in your further development. Maybe it would have been better, though, if they had made those comments about another guitar you'd made before they commissioned one from you, after first asking if you wanted to hear their constructive criticism. It might, indeed, be a good idea to ask a prospective customer for such constructive criticism of your instruments before taking a commission. If they then go ahead and commission one with the understanding that you will do your best but can't promise they still won't find similar faults, then you're on the same page and everything's cool.

Fourth, regarding pricing... I don't mean to be argumentative, and I appreciate the different points of view others have expressed on this... The way I see it is that guitars (made by not-yet-well-known makers who's name doesn't already command a certain price) should be priced on the basis of how good they are. One person's third guitar may be every bit as good as another person's seventy-fifth guitar. If a guitar is excellent it is an excellent guitar and I see no reason to sell it for a price that reflects anything but. I would suggest putting your guitars in the hands of a few highly regarded builders whose work you personally think is cream-of-the-crop (as well as players you respect) and ask for tough constructive criticism. If all they can say is, "Wow. This is an excellently made guitar. Great work!" and you trust their honesty, then you have nothing to apologize for to your customers, nothing to charge a discounted price for, no matter how few you've built. (Your price may still have to reflect your lack of a "name", but that's a separate issue.)
     That's my opinion on that, but I am open to learn from other perspectives if someone wants to punch holes in my logic.

_________________
Todd Rose
Ithaca, NY

https://www.dreamingrosesecobnb.com/todds-art-music

https://www.facebook.com/ToddRoseGuitars/

I hope it was clear that when I said...

[QUOTE=Todd Rose]
I wouldn't commission a guitar from you unless I had examined and played at least one of your guitars and...

[/QUOTE]

...that I meant I wouldn't commission a guitar from ANYONE unless I had done the same, i.e. that was not a comment specifically about you or your guitars...

_________________
Todd Rose
Ithaca, NY

https://www.dreamingrosesecobnb.com/todds-art-music

https://www.facebook.com/ToddRoseGuitars/

I wanted to share one more thing, an observation made by Charles Fox during the class I recently took with him. I hope I can do a reasonable job paraphrasing him...

When you (again, "you" in the general sense) sell someone a guitar, you are providing them with something to delight the senses - all of the senses.

Okay, that may seem obvious, but the implications of it, when you consider that people are seeking a handmade, fine guitar because they aren't satisfied with the run-of-the-mill (even top-of-the-line run-of-the-mill, like a high-end Martin or Taylor, which is pretty great by most people's standards) and they want something truly spectacular, something that will just blow them away and give them a deep thrill every time they open that case... the implications on what we are called to produce are far-reaching. My point is that I don't think we should be hard on a customer for desiring something that approaches perfection... something they can gaze at, touch, smell, and, of course, play, and just be reminded of what an amazingly wonderful, fully delightful thing it is they have in their hands. This doesn't really mean it has to be absolutely flawless, but if there are flaws that give the slightest suggestion that the craftsmanship is anything less than first-rate, then that is bound to undermine the magic of it.

Magic... yeah, I think I hit upon a key word there. When making guitars for the high-end market, I think we need to remember that we are nothing less than magicians. And that is not an unattainable goal - every successful cream-of-the-crop high-end builder has reached it.

_________________
Todd Rose
Ithaca, NY

https://www.dreamingrosesecobnb.com/todds-art-music

https://www.facebook.com/ToddRoseGuitars/