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PostPosted: Sun Jun 03, 2007 1:13 pm 
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First name: Waddy
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Alan:

From the owner's manual,
G&W Tool, Inc
PO Box 691464
Tulsa, OK 74169-1464
phone: 918-486-2761

I think you can get cutters and sharpening stone from them if your supplier doesn't sell them.


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 03, 2007 2:07 pm 
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[QUOTE=Alan Carruth]
I just hand sharpen. I wish I could get another one of those wheels without having to buy the whole outfit! The second one I bought did not come with the wheel, and mine is getting pretty small after 30 years of use![/QUOTE]

I'll write myself a note to send you mine, the face mill has certainly replaced the Wagner.

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 04, 2007 1:05 am 
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[QUOTE=Colin S]
What I never do is thickness any of my plates entirely in the drum sander. To me, especially the size ones that we smaller builders are likely to have, drum sanders are finishing sanders not thicknessers.

[/QUOTE]

I use both a Wagner and a Performax 10-20 (small drum sander), depending on the situation, or my mood at the time, or if I've got the drill press set up for something else, or whatever. I find I can thickness very effectively on the 10-20, using appropriate grit abrasive on the drum. Some woods require coarse abrasive (I go down to 24 grit sometimes) to remove material efficiently (and/or not clog up too quickly). Then you can work up through the grits - changing the abrasive wrapping on this machine is quick once you've done it a few times. For some woods, finer grits just won't work (even 80 grit can be a problem) because of clogging, so there's an example of where the wagner is a better choice. For spruce, I find I can remove material surprisingly quickly on the 10-20 with a fairly fine grit (such as 120), so I often don't bother to start with a coarser grit. Spruce can clog the abrasive, too, but a frequent quick cleaning with an abrasive cleaning stick solves that problem.

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 04, 2007 3:13 am 
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Brazilian Rosewood
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Todd, I too have the 10-20 (much prefer it to the 16-32 I had but that's another story). But I still prefer to use the Wagner to thin the back & sides etc and the 10-20 as a finishing sander for them. As I said tops get planed and scraped.

Like you I don't know what the fuss about changing grits on the 10-20 is all about, it is incredibly easy, I never even use the little tool that comes with it. Where the 10-20 comes into it's own is when thinning things like lining laminates, where put on a sandpaper covered carrier board I can go down to 1mm accurately on multiple strips at the same time. Ditto things like headplates and rossette blanks.

Colin

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 04, 2007 4:20 am 
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Colin, got a picture how you secure a headplate and run it through the Wagner?

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 04, 2007 8:33 am 
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[QUOTE=Ricardo] Colin, got a picture how you secure a headplate and run it through the Wagner?
[/QUOTE]

Ricardo I think you'll find that I use the 10-20 for headplates, I have used the Wagner by simply double taping it to an MDF carrier, but as I said I use the 10-20 now.

Colin

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 04, 2007 4:58 pm 
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Location: Candler, NC United States

Hello all --


I'm new here, and new to lutherie, but already have the bug bad after my first build -- a Stew Mac dread. I'm about to begin my second, an LMI unserviced, Kinkade-inspired OM with Engelmann top and mahogany back and sides. Anyway, I've spent lots of time and learned a ton already from your past threads, and I look forward to contributing (probably mostly in the form of questions) to the forum in the future.


Anyway, I'm strongly considering picking up a Pmax 10/20, and this thread has, I think, affirmed that decision. I purchased one for the University of Arizona's Architecture wood shop, and was very impressed with it's capabilities, especially given the abuse it was forced to endure at the hands of the students.


Being a sculptor, my shop tool needs are pretty well covered, but I have some significant gaps in my hand/lutherie-specific tool arsenal. Sounds like the Safety Planer is a must, but what about hand planes? I have a small jack plane and concave & convex draw knives, but that's it. Any suggestions as far as two or three must-have planes? Any thoughts on the Robo Sander system for profiling tops and backs?


Hope I'm not hijacking the thread. Peace.


Ken


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 05, 2007 2:12 am 
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I have read a couple posts in which people have been unhappy with the 16-32, and prefer the 10-20. I have been using my 16-32 for several years and have never had problems with it. I had made a drum sander before, but I did not make a conveyor for it(which really made it a pain to use IMO). When I ran my first piece through the performax I was knocked out by how well simple it was to use(that conveyor almost made it feel like I was cheating). After having worked with my homebrew drum sander. I was already familiar with how much to take in a pass, to check the drum to be sure it was leveled and such. Maybe that is why I never had issues with the 16-32. I really do think drum sanders are a wonderful tool to have around the shop(I use mine quite a lot).

Peace,Rich


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 05, 2007 2:54 am 
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Yeah, we've hijacked this thread, but I do think it's relevant.

[QUOTE=Hesh1956]

Even the line that can result from double pass, open ended sanding does not happen with the machine that I have. It did at first but comes right out with a ROS. The more I used the machine the more the line went away and now I never see it any more.
[/QUOTE]

Interesting, Hesh. Though I am generally happy with the capabilities of the 10-20, this double-pass ridge is an issue I do have some trouble with. I've tried adjusting the drum so that the outboard end is a bit higher, but I've found that I still get the ridge unless I make the outboard end so much higher that the unevenness in thickness across the width of the board is unacceptable. I also find that the ridge is not so easy to sand out with an ROS. The way the ROS rides up on the ridge, it will sand a concave area on the downhill side of the ridge. I have better luck with a sanding block, but it can still be somewhat frustrating. I am able to minimize the ridge by ending my drum sanding with many passes through the 10-20 leaving the depth adjustment where it is (I always end with at least a few passes this way, anyway), but even this doesn't completely eliminate the ridge and is a bit time consuming and frustrating. This is the main reason why I sometimes wish I had a wider drum sander (a wide belt sander isn't even a possibility for me at this point).

It's fascinating that you have seen the ridge problem disappear over time. I wonder what change has happened... I can think of three possibilities: 1) that you've gotten better at wrapping the abrasive very tightly around the drum; I've found that, if there's a little slack in the abrasive wrapping at the ends where it goes into the slot on the drum (an easy situation to inadvertently create), the ridge is worse, 2) that the drum adjustment has slipped slightly into a new position, with the outboard end a bit higher, and 3) that something in your habitual sanding procedure has changed; maybe you tend to take a lot lighter passes, especially for the last several times through. Still, based on my experience, I'm puzzled as to how the ridge problem could have disappeared entirely. Any thoughts on this?

Another issue I have with my 10-20 is uneven thicknessing down the LENGTH of a workpiece. This is really only an issue with thicker boards. I find I end up with a slightly concave board, thicker at the ends, thinner in the middle. I attribute this to flex in the table: according to my theory, as the board enters, it's leading end is pushed down into the table by the drum; the table flexes in the middle, allowing the board to be pushed down, and therefore less material is removed by the drum until end of the board reaches the far side of the table. There, the board is bridging both the front and back edges of the table, where the table is much more rigid, and the board's own rigidity keeps it up against the drum, so the drum is removing more material (this is why, I figure, this issue is minimal when thicknessing thin plates, because the wood itself flexes so easily that it is still pushed down in the middle [along with the flexing table] by the drum). At any rate, I can get upwards of .015" difference between the thickness at the ends and the thickness in the middle. This, too, can be lessened somewhat by taking lighter passes, but not, in my experience so far, fully eliminated. The result can be on the borderline of what I consider to be within tolerances. In my casual examination of the machine, the design/construction of the table is an obvious weak point. I keep thinking about modifying it somehow - welding a couple of beams into its underside or something - but haven't looked closely at options for accomplishing that. Any thoughts on this?

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Jun 05, 2007 4:26 am 
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On second thought, I'll start a new thread for the 10-20 discussion.

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