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I am looking for resources on voicing classical and flamenco guitars. Everything I have found so far is for steel string guitars. I am aware of the Mayes DVDs, but don't know how they might apply to nylon string instruments. Can anybody help?

Thanks,
Max

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Max Bishop
Brighton, Michigan

Come on classical builders!! This is a good question

I only build classical and flamenco guitars and for years did tap tuning for voicing but when I heard Alan Carruth speak on Chaldni plate "glitter" tuning it really made sense. There is alot of good information in the archives about it as well as good articles in GAL's red books about it (a good number of them written by Alan Carruth).

What I like about it is that it helps to confirm what my ear is hearing. With tap tuning what sounds good the one day may be heard differently another day. The ability to visually see how focused the resonant nodes are and at what frequency has enabled me to be much more consistent with the voicing of my guitars.

As Alan says in talking about it, it is not as much the frequency as it is the shape of the glitter pattern that shows that the guitar is working as a whole to define the sound.

I'll note that the Chladni method is much the same for both steel and nylon string guitars, although, obviously, with the different bracing patterns you have to work differently, and the frequency relationships are different.

The Chladni method is actually an extension of tap tone tuning. The visible vibration patterns are a lot easier for some of us to work with that tap tones. I feel that when you understand the Chladni patterns it can inform your use of tap tuning, if you are averse to technology. Just remember that when you hold up a plate and tap it, you are activating all of the modes that can move at the tapping point, and that don't move much at the holding point. What you hear is the sum of whatever is going on at the spot where you are listening, so that, for example, some modes will simply cancel out, or only be heard weakly in certain places.

One thing that is hard to hear, and easier to see in the patterns, is the exact balance of stiffness from point to point in the plate. One objective in 'glitter testing' is to get rid of hard spots, which show up in the mode shapes. When you can't see the shapes another method must be used. With a bit of practice you can feel the hard spots as you flex different parts of the top. Probably the most difficult part of this is simply letting go and 'trusting the force' so to speak. Your hands are much more sensitive than you might give them credit for being.

The best makers I know use every scrap of evidence they can get. Tapping or scratching and listening, flexing, 'glitter' testing, and deflection tests such as Dave Hurd uses, are all good methods, and they all work for somebody. What you need to do is think about how you like to work, and what you believe might contribute to making a good sounding guitar. The perfect voicing method, assuming one existed, would not be worth anything to you if you couldn't use it, didn't want to, or just never had the time to learn or apply it. Find something that works for you.

Well said...sums it up.

My mind is always inverting Chladni into Chaldni...thanks

Shawn,

Can you direct me to particular issues of the GAL Journal or the partcular Big Red Book, as I don't own many of them.

Thanks to all for your help.
Max

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Max Bishop
Brighton, Michigan

Huh? 

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Waddy

Photobucket Build Album Library

Sound Clips of most of my guitars

Thanks Allan,

Could you refer me to any specific resources on this method. I can Google it, but you may know of something that would speak directly to my particular interest.

Regards,
Max

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Max Bishop
Brighton, Michigan

OIC! 

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Waddy

Photobucket Build Album Library

Sound Clips of most of my guitars

Hi Max,

Start with the bridge.

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Instagram: @jfrenchluthier
Web: https://www.jfrenchguitars.com/

I am on my way back home travelling for work...I will look up the articles and post the references when I get back.

In the meantime if you search the archives here for Chladni you will find a number of excellent posts in which Alan Carruth talks about glitter tuning. What is nice about the GAL articles that discuss this is seeing the patterns that Alan was talking about and at what frequencies.

As Alan said most builders will use a combination of methods so there are multiple paths to voicing but in the end it should all be consistent.

StewMac is now selling Roger Siminoff's "the art of tap Tunning" dvd/book set. It is, in MHO, a very good starting point. His technigues apply to all stringed instruments. From Pianos to Mandos so I think it would be helpful to you. He talks about Guitars and Mandos mostly but it's the principles of the tunning that he teaches that is important. It is not instrument specific. It is selling for around $35. That's the book and dvd together. I am building three classicals and plan to use his teachings on them. I am also planning on using the teachings of Master luthier Ervin Somogyi as well. But that's the cool part... the things Roger talks about ( well mostly), coincide and actually re-affirm what Ervin has taught me. Ervin's on a higher level. You can't compare a week long class with Master Somogyi to a book/dvd...But Roger is teaching good stuff. I think you will find his advice useful.

Again...in MHO...

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Dave Bland

remember...

"If it doesn't play in tune...it's just pretty wood"

Dave B wrote:
"... the things Roger talks about ( well mostly), coincide and actually re-affirm what Ervin has taught me. "

It should all fit together; after all, we're talking about vibration and wood here. If somebody tyells you something that seems realy weird, and that goes against all the other stuff you've learned, either the stuff that you think is true isn't, or this person is leading you on. These are physical objects, and they obey physical laws, although it may seem sometimes as though they don't!

Alan,
Thank You for the words...that was exactly what I meant. I just din't want to put either in front of the other. Roger's book/dvd is on a more simplistic level/approach than Ervin's class (although I am sure both are equally accurate and correct). No doubt that both are qualified to teach the topic. I guess what I was trying to say is that both have value and I highly recommend both.

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Dave Bland

remember...

"If it doesn't play in tune...it's just pretty wood"

Chladni method, flex testing, tuning to a pitch etc. are all methods that will get you in the ballpark and they are valid. However, there are so many variables that I feel that if there were one magic formula then someone would right a book and everyone would follow that method and end of story. You need to study everything you can get your hands on and then just "let go" and follow your intuition. The so called Masters didn't have the high tech methods of measuring and analyzing like we do today and we are still trying to copy their results.
When it comes to voicing a guitar, either classical or steel string I believe it begins with the choice of materials in the design phase and then includes everything from thickness of plates (both top and back, graduated or not) bracing pattern, thickness, height of braces, bridge design and even the finish.
Some insight I can offer is that most steel string guitars are way over built. If you carry this mentality over to classical building then you will have something that sounds like a 2 X 4 with strings. Think thin! I also don't tap tune to a certain pitch. I look and listen for sustain and resonance with a crisp fundamental and colorful overtones. This may mean thicker on some tops and thinner on others. I may change the bracing pattern or design to achieve this as well. I suggest you begin with a set of plans from a tested guitar design and build exactly according to the plans. Then on the next guitar pull from the past experience and "tweak" something like top thickness or bracing stiffness and then check the result. If the result was positive then make another small change to the next guitar and so on. After a few dozen guitars you ought to begin to hone in on a certain tone or sound that you like and will begin to ahieve it over and over again. Also, you will begin to understand how your changes affect the tone or sound you are looking for.
As luthiers we have chosen an artistic path that is a lifelong pursuit of refining our craft. Not only do our creations have to look good but they have to sound good as well. Is one lifetime really enough time to achieve this goal?       

Many, many thanks to all for your responses. I feel very fortunate for the input and references you have provided. Now I have tons of material to digest and experiment with. This forum has been an extremely valuable resource for me so far in my brief lutherie career.

Max

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Max Bishop
Brighton, Michigan