Official Luthiers Forum!

Anybody...Here's what I need:

...BRW Pyramid Bridge
...1/8" saddle slot
...No BP holes

For some strange reason BRW pyramid bridges have lately become the 600 lb. elephant in the room...and we have no understanding as to why. (See the posts related to the censored thread.) We were given guidance by Brock that we should drop the issue but I couldn't care less now about embarrassing any prominent members or sponsors. I guess I just need rationale explanations rather than BS...sorry.

I've given the private message of dealing with this issue long enough with nothing having been resolved. My PM request for a truthful explanation has been ignored and gone unanswered. Soooo...I just want to know where I can buy these bridges on the open market. No PM's please...I'm tired of the drama.

TIA...Over & Out...JJ

_________________
JJ
Napa, CA
http://www.DonohueGuitars.com

JJ,
I might be missing something here-butI believe John Watkins has them.

gee, i heard on the grapevine hush hush that some guy named karol had a supply, but i seem to remember his had the holes drilled! perhaps he would part with one, or two or?

[QUOTE=crazymanmichael] gee, i heard on the grapevine hush hush that some guy named karol had a supply, but i seem to remember his had the holes drilled! perhaps he would part with one, or two or?[/QUOTE]

What Karol bridges? Remember, that's the thread that was buried...it never existed.

"Pay no attention to that man behind the curtain!" How many can identify the souirce of that movie line?

_________________
JJ
Napa, CA
http://www.DonohueGuitars.com

I remember that movie JJ, The wizard of Oz.

Now back to the question.

Didn't Brock say he bought a bunch from John earlier this year? Maybe you can get some from him.

_________________
My Facebook Guitar Page

"There's really no wrong way, as long as the results are what's desired." Charles Fox

"We have to constantly remind ourselves what we're doing....No Luthier is putting a man on the moon!" Harry Fleishman

"Generosity is always different in the eye of the person who didn't receive anything, but who wanted some." Waddy Thomson

JJ, the fact is, nobody sells BRW pyramid bridge blanks that I'm aware of, and what you're asking for is something custom. If you want some, you will probably have to go to someone who will make them for you like John W. Stew Mac sells ebony ones, and I think LMI might as well, but BRW...., right now nobody has such a beast. This really isn't a big deal.

_________________
"I want to know what kind of pickups Vince Gill uses in his Tele, because if I had those, as good of a player as I am, I'm sure I could make it sound like that.
Only badly."

Those have pin holes though. JJ needs them without pin holes.

_________________
My Facebook Guitar Page

"There's really no wrong way, as long as the results are what's desired." Charles Fox

"We have to constantly remind ourselves what we're doing....No Luthier is putting a man on the moon!" Harry Fleishman

"Generosity is always different in the eye of the person who didn't receive anything, but who wanted some." Waddy Thomson

Oh and I would add that those look awesome. I think I need to get me some of those.

_________________
My Facebook Guitar Page

"There's really no wrong way, as long as the results are what's desired." Charles Fox

"We have to constantly remind ourselves what we're doing....No Luthier is putting a man on the moon!" Harry Fleishman

"Generosity is always different in the eye of the person who didn't receive anything, but who wanted some." Waddy Thomson

I don?t want to act against any interest of any sponsor - if you don?t have luck at the first place I can help you - if interested send me a pm. Martin

[QUOTE=Hesh1956] Brock sold these to me.

[/QUOTE]

Am I the only one who is beginning to smell a rat!?

_________________
JJ
Napa, CA
http://www.DonohueGuitars.com

Yeah JJ you are quite the detective.

Ok folks here is the story. I really didn't think this was such a BFD but JJ seems to think he is on to some kind of scoop or something, so I might as well lay it out there for you.

I needed a BRW pyramid bridge for a project and I asked John Watkins about making them. It was too high to justify the cost for 1 bridge so Lance and I cooked up the idea that we would go ahead and pay John to work up the CAD drawings and the tooling and we would try to sell some of these commercially to recoup the development costs. So WE paid John for the engineering.

All we asked from John was that he not make rosewood bridges available publicly since that would clearly eliminate our ability to recoup our up front investment. Being the stand up guy that he is -- he of course agreed.

We bought a boat load of blanks from Steve (supported a sponsor) and paid John to cut them, and we have been selling them here and there on ebay and through our personal network.

I know John has made these bridges in ebony for a commercial vendor and he was very up front and asked us if we were ok with that. And, of course we said yes, since our primary goal was simply to recoup our investment and StewMac was already selling an ebony bridge.

So, that begs the question what was wrong with Tony's post. The short answer ... nothing.

I am sure Tony went to John and asked "Hey, can you cut me some pyramid bridges, I will send you the blanks?" and John agreed. (Afterall, all we asked was he not offer it as a commercial product, which he has not done). I am sure Tony's post that said hey look at all the goodies I got from John was 100% innocent, but it created a weird problem for us.

We knew that this was going to spur the questions of others asking for these bridges from BRW and John would either have to begin offering them, or tell people no.

If he said no, in order to honor our understanding about not commercially offering BRW pyramid bridges, he would have offended those on the forum who wanted them and saw Tony with them (as well as me).

If he said yes, that would have not only killed our ability to recoup our up front engineering costs but would have vastly devalued the inventory we invested in.

Either way John could have been in a tough spot. Again, I have no problem with what he did, and I do not think he ever did anything that wasn't within the spirit of our arrangement. But that post was going to lead to a problem.

I sent Tony a note about this, I was very up front with him and explained the situation and told him I hoped he understood why we archived it. He seemed to understand.

So where is the rat? Because we were trying to keep one of our most valued sponsors out of a corner? Because we wanted to recover our investment?

Of course, I realize that pyramid bridges are not cutting edge technology and there is no proprietary on the design. If Paul Davis, Bob Garrish, or any of the other CNC guys on the forum were cutting these we would have no issues. But we paid for that engineering work and getting a chance to recover that investment is not much to ask.

And for all you who are saying -- "Ah, they are just money grubbing S.O.B.'s" ask Hesh how much I charged him for those. I simply charged the cutting fee plus the cost of the blank. So, no conspiracy there either... Just tried to do something nice for a fellow OLFer.

There is nothing about this that is unreasonable. It just wasn't something that needed to be gone into in public.

So now that the cat's out of the bag so to speak, and JJ has effectively killed our ability to recoup this investment by making such a fuss over this. I see no reason not to ask John to offer the BRW pyramid bridges commercially.





Folks, this forum takes an enormous amount of time to run. I get 30 or more PMs per day from folks who have issues or questions, and both Lance and I try to create an environment that is friendly and hospitable to everyone.

However, somewhere along the way folks have gotten the idea that this means that everyone has the right to "demand" satisfaction to their questions and issues.

For the most part we try not to interfere in the posts, but there are behind the scenes issues that everyone is not always aware of that influence our decisions.

I assure you that NO ONE has put more time or effort on this forum than Lance and I and there is no reason for us to be a "rat". If we were trying to do something subversive we would simply shut it down.

We love this forum and on the whole get a lot of satisfaction out of the community. But letting folks stir up these divisions amongst us is counter productive and undermines our entire community.

_________________
Brock Poling
Columbus, Ohio
http://www.polingguitars.com

I would offer this Brock.

Because we are all part of a community, make it a community effort. You guys most certainly could have asked if there were anyone who was willing to do a group buy (just like the lining clamps) I bet you would have had enough interest to cover the cost and everyone would have been happy. Now this is just looking a little bit bad on your (L&B) part.

We all know this is your guys show, but since it is a community, lets make it a better one by including folks in things like this. It would have gone better in the long run.

People would have jumped right in to help you out you know.

_________________
My Facebook Guitar Page

"There's really no wrong way, as long as the results are what's desired." Charles Fox

"We have to constantly remind ourselves what we're doing....No Luthier is putting a man on the moon!" Harry Fleishman

"Generosity is always different in the eye of the person who didn't receive anything, but who wanted some." Waddy Thomson

Just curious ~ What do those bridges weigh in grams? I might like to get a couple. Nice photo Hesh.

[QUOTE=Terry Stowell] Just curious ~ What do those bridges weigh in grams? I might like to get a couple. Nice photo Hesh.[/QUOTE]


Most of them are between 21 and 23 grams.

_________________
Brock Poling
Columbus, Ohio
http://www.polingguitars.com

Hesh the only thing I can say to you is that this is what we offer, for better or worse. I feel like we are doing the best we can.

If you think otherwise, so be it, it is your perogative. You are free to participate or not.

I am simply not going to debate the subject further. I have said what I have to say about it, Lance and I are in agreement, and this is all clearly posted within the code of conduct.

Beyond that I really don't know what to say. Lance and I made a decision about these posts and it is done. I am sorry you don't approve.

_________________
Brock Poling
Columbus, Ohio
http://www.polingguitars.com

Just to stir the pot a little, Frank Ford has a tutorial on making pyramid bridges over at frets.com. They are pretty quick and easy to make yourself.

_________________
Richard
http://www.guitarmaker.com

[quote]If John Watkins is getting requests, why not simply sell him some of your stock for him to onsell? [/quote]

    This is a puzzlement! There are, I'm very sure many that would still buy these BRWPB's just because Lance and Brock went to the trouble, let alone they look like nice bridges! Just offering them to us first could of burned up your inventory and maybe facilitated another run!

    It has to be remembered the OLF is like the ol'water'in hole, the corner church, the weekly poker game. It's not just drink'in, gambling or even worship itself, it's also the friendship, the assurance that there are others that are looking out for each other, at least to their abilities(important point).

    If something is creepy appearing, even if it is honorable in reality, this is going to unsettle.

      I feel guilty, because of personal circumstance not to be able to contribute to the maintance of the forum as much as I would like, because it is a very important part of my daily activities.

     If you guys feel concerned about impropriety offering these BRWPB's to us because of being moderators, don't! It's not a captive market! There are many I'm sure that would like these just on their own merit let alone you, Lance and Brock designing, and John W producing.

     I feel kind of puzzled, wierd, maybe a touch offended these weren't offered here generally first!

As for smelling... a rat... it's probably my avatar! Sorry!    


AND WHERE'S MY EDIT BUTTON!!!    

_________________
Billy Dean Thomas
Covina, CA

"Multi famam, conscientiam, pauci verentur."
(Many fear their reputation, few their conscience)

I don't quite get it either. Why not put them in the auction section and give us all a shot at them, if your main goal is to sell them and recoup the cost?

Billy's right! Why didn't we get first shot at them?
In fact, this could be a potential way to internally fund the development of a number of CNC designs, through OLF participation in the initial product batch, after which the vendor would have a new product to offer.

Jim

_________________
Jim Kirby
kirby@udel.edu

I just carve my own.

Al

[QUOTE=Brock Poling] Yeah JJ you are quite the detective.

Ok folks here is the story. I really didn't think this was such a BFD but JJ seems to think he is on to some kind of scoop or something, so I might as well lay it out there for you.

I needed a BRW pyramid bridge for a project and I asked John Watkins about making them. It was too high to justify the cost for 1 bridge so Lance and I cooked up the idea that we would go ahead and pay John to work up the CAD drawings and the tooling and we would try to sell some of these commercially to recoup the development costs. So WE paid John for the engineering.

All we asked from John was that he not make rosewood bridges available publicly since that would clearly eliminate our ability to recoup our up front investment. Being the stand up guy that he is -- he of course agreed.

We bought a boat load of blanks from Steve (supported a sponsor) and paid John to cut them, and we have been selling them here and there on ebay and through our personal network.

I know John has made these bridges in ebony for a commercial vendor and he was very up front and asked us if we were ok with that. And, of course we said yes, since our primary goal was simply to recoup our investment and StewMac was already selling an ebony bridge.

So, that begs the question what was wrong with Tony's post. The short answer ... nothing.

I am sure Tony went to John and asked "Hey, can you cut me some pyramid bridges, I will send you the blanks?" and John agreed. (Afterall, all we asked was he not offer it as a commercial product, which he has not done). I am sure Tony's post that said hey look at all the goodies I got from John was 100% innocent, but it created a weird problem for us.

We knew that this was going to spur the questions of others asking for these bridges from BRW and John would either have to begin offering them, or tell people no.

If he said no, in order to honor our understanding about not commercially offering BRW pyramid bridges, he would have offended those on the forum who wanted them and saw Tony with them (as well as me).

If he said yes, that would have not only killed our ability to recoup our up front engineering costs but would have vastly devalued the inventory we invested in.

Either way John could have been in a tough spot. Again, I have no problem with what he did, and I do not think he ever did anything that wasn't within the spirit of our arrangement. But that post was going to lead to a problem.

I sent Tony a note about this, I was very up front with him and explained the situation and told him I hoped he understood why we archived it. He seemed to understand.

So where is the rat? Because we were trying to keep one of our most valued sponsors out of a corner? Because we wanted to recover our investment?

Of course, I realize that pyramid bridges are not cutting edge technology and there is no proprietary on the design. If Paul Davis, Bob Garrish, or any of the other CNC guys on the forum were cutting these we would have no issues. But we paid for that engineering work and getting a chance to recover that investment is not much to ask.

And for all you who are saying -- "Ah, they are just money grubbing S.O.B.'s" ask Hesh how much I charged him for those. I simply charged the cutting fee plus the cost of the blank. So, no conspiracy there either... Just tried to do something nice for a fellow OLFer.

There is nothing about this that is unreasonable. It just wasn't something that needed to be gone into in public.

So now that the cat's out of the bag so to speak, and JJ has effectively killed our ability to recoup this investment by making such a fuss over this. I see no reason not to ask John to offer the BRW pyramid bridges commercially.





Folks, this forum takes an enormous amount of time to run. I get 30 or more PMs per day from folks who have issues or questions, and both Lance and I try to create an environment that is friendly and hospitable to everyone.

However, somewhere along the way folks have gotten the idea that this means that everyone has the right to "demand" satisfaction to their questions and issues.

For the most part we try not to interfere in the posts, but there are behind the scenes issues that everyone is not always aware of that influence our decisions.

I assure you that NO ONE has put more time or effort on this forum than Lance and I and there is no reason for us to be a "rat". If we were trying to do something subversive we would simply shut it down.

We love this forum and on the whole get a lot of satisfaction out of the community. But letting folks stir up these divisions amongst us is counter productive and undermines our entire community.
[/QUOTE]

I just now said goodbye to a house full of family members who were here for 4 days. During that time I have been anxious to post a reply to Brock's attempt to shoot the messenger and blame me for ruining his business deal. Hubris...look up the meaning of that word!

Instead of posting here where I don't want Lance to be sullied by the dialogue, I'll deal directly with Brock off line where I tried to keep this issue in the first place. My beef has never been with Lance nor was it ever intended to stir up divisions within the OLF that I have supported and loved since its inception!



   

_________________
JJ
Napa, CA
http://www.DonohueGuitars.com

Well said Todd.Life`s too short.
                James

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James W Bolan
Nashville Tennessee