Official Luthiers Forum!

I really like Steve Klein's guitar design and not being able to afford the genuine thing, I'd like to try building a guitar in the shape of the Kleins. I won't be selling it - it's for my use only. But is it OK to use someone's unique design? We've been copying Martins for decades, but the Klein is especially unique. Should I ask permission first, or does it matter if it's my personal guitar? Thanks!

Therewas a discussion of this nature a while back from what I remember

There are people on the OLF who will say that you absolutely should contact a luthier out of repsect for thier work, and thier efforts in designing the instrument you so desire... and of course out of courtesy,
and that likely, most luthiers being decent people.... will actually help you facilitate that construction of your instrument, with information etc.

There are others who will tell you that its fine to build a one off of your favorite instrument as long as its for your own personal use. And that luthiers dont want to hear from EVERY person copying some part of thier design..

Then there are others who will say why bother making a Klein - that the purpose of luthierie is to create your own designs and youll be happier if you did etc

I think that some even said "technically peoples proprietary designs cannot legally be copied even for ones own personal" use etc etc

Ultimately in the end, its really your decision...
Cheers
Charliewood

Pat, if you want to make something based on the Klein guitars, you'll need to study the Kasha theories, which drive Steve's designs. Most folks in the guitar industry view the Kasha theory as a lot of hooey, but if you like the other aspects of Steve's designs then make something based on them. Imitation is the most sincere form of flattery, as they say.

Most folks copy old Martin and Gibson designs because they work, and have proven their worth over generations.

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"I want to know what kind of pickups Vince Gill uses in his Tele, because if I had those, as good of a player as I am, I'm sure I could make it sound like that.
Only badly."

I have a personal opinion which is this; if you are inspired to build a guitar like <........>(fill the blank) contact them first and ask them, and if they give you the go-ahead, do it.....and give them credit at the end of the project for your design and inspirational source.

I would contact the builder..... and give due credit.

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Peter M.
Cornerstone Guitars
http://www.cornerstoneukes.com

[quote]Is it OK to use someone else’s design?[/quote]

    Doesn't everybody?

    I would contact, and they would likely help , but the PRS issue settled certain appearance legal concerns.

    Myself... personally, if the guitar came out looking to close to someone else's work, would indeliably brand it, so as to thwart fraud! If the guitar ever leaves my control I wouldn't want to be associated with that.

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Billy Dean Thomas
Covina, CA

"Multi famam, conscientiam, pauci verentur."
(Many fear their reputation, few their conscience)

I'm currently building an almost exact copy of a Torres guitar and I haven't asked him if it's OK. What! you mean he's dead!

Colin

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I don't believe in anything, I simply make use of a set of reasonable working hypotheses.

I have typed a comment 3 times and erased it before I hit the post reply button. I'll hold that thought for a better conversation.

In all respect, I think it would be a good thing to contact the builder and see if he will give his blessings on building under his design. In all liklihood, he will be thrilled that somneone else will want to use his design and give you all the help you need, maybe even a blueprint to go by. It may even help if you asked if the blueprints are available for purchase.

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Reguards,

Ken H

The semantics that ensued last time this issue came up was that people sometimes consider it a ripoff issue, utter lack of originality perhaps, or fruad of some sort - instead of what it really is IMHO... an homage.
I think that most builder wear the influence on thier sleeve so blatantly as to remove all doubt as to the inspiration for thier build,,,sort of like a band that loves Zeppelin, will sound like them at times.
The forgers art is another matter altogether and has no place here.
I dont see that Sylvans Home DePaule, is a heinous ripoff but a glorious nod to Bob Taylor, Gibson(McCarty), and Benedetto.. all in one fell swoop, as well as a display of Sylvans immense talent and vision.
Still lovin that axe Sylvan!

If you cant afford something that really intruiges you the only thing "To Do" is to make a copy of it somehow.
Like all those kids making thier own Strats, basses, and homemade amps in the 60's when they werent easy to come by.
Also see Leo Fender Bassman and the mighty Marshalls that followed, and all the other innovations in history,,, incl the Famed Xbrace, acreditted to Martin ... but copied by him from other sources most definitely.
So I wonder if C.F. considered his Xbraced designs an homage? or something more sinister?
Im sure the original luthier would be as impressed with what C.F. accomplished, as we all are!
Cheers
Charliewood

My previous statement is just my private thoughts on the matter and mean ABSOLUTELY NOTHING in the grand scheme of things.. they certainly werent posted to incite debate on the matter - or to contradict anyone elses opinion & I hope that people will recieve it in that spirit it was offered.
Just my $.02   
Cheers
Charliewood

So if you contact Klein and he says NO! what will you do?

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Rian Gitar og Mandolin

Sometimes it's easier to ask forgiveness than permission.

Al

That was a joke.

Al

I contacted Mr Laskin to get his permission to use his armrest design. He thanked me for asking, and granted permission.
I once contacted Taylor guitars requesting info on the stain used on my 612. They gave me the brand, stock#, phone # of the supplier, and info on how they applied it.
This seems to be pretty typical.

Al

Does the idea of asking permission apply to every luthier who bases his or her dreadnoughts on a prewar Martin D28?

Jim

I like the idea of branding it so no one ever thinks it a real Klein (not that that's very likely - I doubt my skills are up to those of Mr. Klein). I don't plan on copying the headstock anyway - just the body shape. I guess if he says "No way", I'll just build a "normal" jumbo out of respect. I expect, though, that he won't object. It'll be neat to communicate with such a famous luthier. I'll let y'all know what he says!

How much of the guitar needs to be different before we can label it as 'our' model? After all, we all have holes on top, similar bracing (if not identical from a plan), almost every plantilla size has been done, many common bridge shapes, headstock shapes, dimensions, wood combos, etc. Artistic stuff aside, I bet there's very little on a Klein guitar that you couldn't find already done elsewhere.

John

I once asked another builder if they would mind if I incorporated one of their details into one of my instruments, they requested that I didn't, which I respected. No hard feelings.
I think it's just common curtesy to ask.

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Jim Watts
http://jameswattsguitars.com

This is a great question and it would be nice if someone with a legal background could answer. I did some reading on Wiki and it really seems to be a matter of where you live. Australia seems to prohibit copying anything without the creator's permission, even for personal use only, while Canada seems to allow anything to be copied for your own use. The US, as typical, seems a morass of whereas's, here-to-fore's and other mumbo jumbo.

Sounds like the safe thing to do is to contact the builder and ask.

Rob

ISTM, when a luthier puts a plan out there in a book or makes them available for purchase, that is pretty much tantamount to permission to use his/her design.  Ripping off a trade secret that is not published or made available, is something else again.

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Waddy

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