Official Luthiers Forum!

Ken--

Stuff happens. You've shown an admirable amount of courage by making this post. As others have mentioned, you have probably saved a bucnh of us from doing this very thing. I know that I would have dropped into serious 'logger talk' had it happened to me.

I'm too much of a beginner to have a serious opinion about the run-out, but I can say that from a civil engineering standpoint, I would have expected a much different failure pattern in the wood.

Once the emotions have run their course, the fix won't be that bad.

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Jim Howell
Charlotte, NC

OUCH....is right! I feel your pain!

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Peter M.
Cornerstone Guitars
http://www.cornerstoneukes.com

[QUOTE=davidmor]
[QUOTE=crazymanmichael]but don't reject the most used fretting technique simply because you carelessly and thoughtlessly tried a shortcut and came undone.   
there are advantages to fretting when the guitar is otherwise complete. otherwise those of us who do it that way wouldn't.[/QUOTE]Oh man that is a real bummer. I am sorry to see that happen to a beautiful guitar so close to being finished.I am glad that Michael made these statements though because it opens the opportunity for me to ask what might be a simple question.Why would you want to fret the neck, and more importantly the exension after the neck is set and glued? I see that many if not most builders do it this way but I don't see the advantage and rather see a huge disadvantage which the original post shows. I know fretting beforehand bows the fingerboard but that is pretty easy to work around so I am curious why fretting is so often done after the neck is on. This is not intended to run down a method, rather I am a fairly new builder (4 builds) and I have never read the reason so it is a newb question.Thanks[/QUOTE]


This is the way I do my fretting. I build rather traditional guitars with a dovetail neck joint and I finish my bodies and neck separately. I fret my necks after the finish is polished and the neck is attached to the body.   

My reason is that this gives me the most control over fine tuning the fingerboard surface, paying close attention to my truss rod and neck relief as I make a final leveling of the fingerboard before fretting. Time spent with careful prep here will save you from having to level your frets much, if at all. If you are working with stainless steel wire this is the only way to go as you really do not want to have to grind those puppies down.

I've built about 30 guitars and refretted hundreds and I have only messed up one hammering frets in over the body joint. It was a flamenco guitar that I was building with a student and we dropped the transverse brace putting the last fret in. It was many years ago but I think we did not use an internal support on that fret since we were hammering right over a brace. Well, that didn’t work!

For fretting over the extension I tap the fret ends in first and then hold my favorite block plane (with blade retracted) inside the guitar body while I drive the fret home. Keep in mind that hammering frets and hammering nails are entirely different operations. When I hammer frets I’m not swinging the hammer but rather letting the hammer fall under its own weight.

If I have a lot of trouble getting the frets seated over the body I will some times trim the barbs down a little with a small file (same results as SM Fret Barber) and try again.

I usually do not use glue or anything in the slots while fretting but I do put a drop of CA on the fret ends and clam them down with a caul that matches the fingerboard radius as a final step and insurance against fret ends lifting.

Supporting the neck with a heavy mass (bag of shot etc.) is a very good idea but keep in mind that if your bench flexes beneath this the benefit in stability will be minimized. I have a 4 x 4 about a foot in from the left corner of my workbench and place my bag o' shot directly over this area when fretting. Rigidity, Rigidity, Rigidity.

As for the bummer of a broken Ax, I would do as Hesh suggests and set it aside for a while before you do anything else.

Louis

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- Louis Freilicher

Oh No! Not another learning experience!

as i said i came to luthiery through the repair side. i did my first fret job back in '63 or 64. bolt on nects had not been invented yet, so refrets had to be done with the neck in situ, using a hammer. i have no idea how many have ensued, but i have never cracked a top or done any other damage with the hammer.

as to why one would want to do it that way in new construction, well probably the main reason, since i still utilize the dovetail mortice and tenon to join the neck to the body, is to avoid the dreaded 14th fret(or 12th or 13th or whatever) hump. with no frets in the way the fretboard can always be sanded straight and flat.

Thanks again for all the kind comments. I have had time to settle down a bit now and I think I will first attempt to repair the crack. If that goes well, I will just keep it for a demo for people to play that dont know my work. Having a repair on it may also lead to some repair work in the future, so maybe all will turn out ok after all. I am the kind of guy that does his best to make lemonaide out of lemons anyway and I always look for the silver lining to every cloud. This mistake may work out for the best in the long run. If not, I'll have one heck of a nice dread to add to my collection.

I have checked the transverse brace, and it is loose on the bass side where the crack is. I dont know yet if the brace its self broke or if the glue joint failed, but will find out soon. All I can go on right now is feel, and it feels like the brace may have split.

I sincerely hope this post helps remind others to take it easy when you are fretting instruments. This was my reason for the post. This top and brace wood came from one of our major sponsors, but I dont want to blame them for supplying defective wood. I should have used the caul as I always do, but in a moment of haste I didnt do it and this is the result. I blame nobody but myself.

In the future I will know to check for runout and just not build with it. I now know the importance of knowing how to check for things like this and  what to avoid. It wont happen again in my shop.

 

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Reguards,

Ken H

Ken,

You are a class act. With this thread you have taught more than just guitar building.

Peter

Ken,

Too bad, but hopefully this will buff up your "badge" as a guitar builder.

Don't know if you saw this in an earlier thread, but John Greven's site has a great tutorial on replacing the top on one of his guitars. Very slick.

Greven Guitars Look at Retop How-to under Extras.

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now known around here as Pat Foster
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http://www.patfosterguitars.com

Sorry this happened to you Ken.It was good of you to post this.The Greven way to Re-Top looks good to me.
Good luck with it and Thanks.

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Anderson Guitars
Clearwater,Fl. 33755