Official Luthiers Forum!

Thanks guys for the advice, I understand the answer to my question is: cut it as soon as possible.   
Thanks Shane for the details this is helpfull.

Here are some pictures I just took.
As you can see, there is a crack running in the middle of the beam. I am planning to split it in this crack, then start resawing from there.
To get the most tops, I plan to resaw some at 90 degree then to keep my resawing radial take some wedge (for mando or violin, etc) then some more continue with more guitasr tops.
What do you think.
My fellow should have left it thicker

Oops forgot the pictures...

BTW, I was told this is white spruce.

Well, ol 40 grit Rick may know an awful lot about guitar building and related topics but it seems he knows nothing about being humble or having the manners to show reasonable courtesy when communicating with others. In fact I find a lot of his post thus far have been structured more towards attacking another members point of view or stroking his own ego rather than addressing the issue at hand.

It would appear that as far as Rick is concerned, if he aint heard of it, it must be wrong, and if it's wrong in Rick's world, the rest of you numb skulls had better keep your opinions to yourself. Don't get me wrong, I, like many others here realy do appreciate the input of his experience. However allowing this overbearing attitude to continue concerns me as it undermines the free exchange of information which has always been the foundation of this forum.

Should fear of humiliation as a result such boorish behaviour prevent our newer or inexperienced members from having an input or even if they just made to feel stifled or apprehensive about making a post, two negatives will happen. Firstly the OLF will become stale and homogenized, but worse than that, people will cease to learn from this place. I can't think of the number of times when I have seen a post made by a member which, whilst seeking to offer assistance, did in fact contain misinformation, and then someone else chimes in and politely offers a correction and importantly an explanation of why this is so. In the scenario everybody learns.

Rick does not seem to get this bit. In his above post he just tells me to "butt out" no explanation of WHY he thinks that my input was a "perpetuation of myth", just that I should keep my "idle chat" restricted to "bars and social clubs".

Well firstly I stick by what I said when I was trying to help another member out, if you have had a green bolt of spruce shipped to you, soak it in a tub of water for 24hrs before you resaw and you will restrict end checking to a minimum, even if ol'40grit has never heard of doing it this way.

Oh and Rick, God forbid but should ever this piece of advice ever make it's way to the lofty heights of acceptance in Rick's world, I would expect an apology, however given the total lack of humility you have displayed on this list thus far, I shall not be holding my breath.

Kim

Alain,
    Because of the length(and assuming you are looking for two billets). I might be tempted to clip the end to see how deep those little checks in the end are going(generally they are not super deep, but if you split the board and one runs a little deep you could lose both of your billets potential, and these are the end checks that I mentioned killing my billets potential yet looked pretty harmless). Don't clip much length when you are trying to see how deep they run, just a little at a time, until you are confident you have clean wood. Then evaluate your length knowing you have solid wood at each end.

For what it is worth, and this is only my thought from glancing at the picture. After confirming the length of solid wood, and if I was after guitar tops. I would cut to two billets, then split a wedge using the left side of that board(of course I would look close at both ends of the billets before splitting to make sure everything appeared to align and I had the best chance of getting a good wedge. It looks to me(and based on dimensions you mentioned) that that corner could yeild the best chance to get enough side on your wedge and get close to well quarter). I would not use the edges as they are cut now to cut tops as you are going to get odd grain orientation. I kinda ruff sketched up your picture(again you have to look the wood over, because I can't be sure this is best without looking at the wood more closely. just take my suggestion as a ruff idea as to what I would look to do.).


Peace,Rich

Hey Alain, Rich has some good advice, but I would offer another
suggestion as I thnk you will be using this wood for yourself rather than
marketing this wood where defects are not acceptable. Cut your 48 in
length in half, then start to split out a billet or two from each bolt and
then resaw them into tops. You may have some end checks in some of
the top sets but the reality is that at a 24 inch length you have 4 inches to
play with and since the end that you just cut to get the 24 inches was just
cut it should have no checks. You should though get at it my friend
before these cracks grow in size and propogate, you have to work around
the major crack but the rest I wouldn't worry about just yet.

Good luck and let us know how it turns out!

Oh ya, I just wanted to add a couple of thoughts about experience, until I
cut my first spruce about 6 years ago, I had no experience cutting spruce.
I read, I cut, I sent sets out and asked for feedback and read some more
and paid attention. I am following the same process for guitar building
and repair. Where I live I will be the only guy that offers these services for
communities with a 2 hour hour radius. There are two guitar makers in a
small community 2 hours to east of me but nobody to the north, south or
west. I have no opportunity for tutalege, so it is from books, customers/
friends and this fine forum that I learn. Canada has a larger footprint
than the US but with a population of less than 30 million. That is about
the same as New York State or so isn't it? So our density is sparce and
you learn from doing it! Right or wrong, that is reality and I feel fine
about. I just levelled some frets on an electric for the first time tonight
for a guy I have only talked to on the phone. We discussed my
experience and my thoughts about the operation, he cam eover and
watched and left smiling and I am a bit more confident. I read lots before
I did it, then did it! Gotta learn somewhere and there are a number of
ways to skin a cat. I can tell you that Steve McMinn at Pacifc Rim
Tonewoods would probably laugh his guts out if he saw how I process
wood compared to how he does it, but my high end guys appreciate my
hand done method and attention to detail that I take and I feel good
about it so for now it is how I do it.

How back to our original broadcast still in progress.....

Shane

_________________
Canada

larkim wrote:
"Well firstly I stick by what I said when I was trying to help another member out, if you have had a green bolt of spruce shipped to you, soak it in a tub of water for 24hrs before you resaw and you will restrict end checking to a minimum, even if ol'40grit has never heard of doing it this way. "

Assuming the bolt was really green, and had not dried out to speak of, that ought to work. The problem is there could well be small checks that you've missed. In that case, soaking the wood will make them seem to go away, but it won't magically make it mechanically sound. The checks will still be there, and will show up later. Better in that case to trim the end back past the checking and salvage what you can of sound wood. Having run into that scenario a few times, as I'm sure Rick has, I'd tend to go with the bird in the hand.

As for your references to 'ol 40 grit' and other endearments, I'd appreciate it if you'd give it a rest. You may find Rick's style a bit blunt, but even you have to admit that he's speaking from a lot of experience. One thing I've found about people like that is that they are generally pretty open minded if you present things properly. They can come across as authoritarian, and why not: compared to most of us they are authorities! But if you take the time to point out the positive aspects of your case, you will usualy find them willing to learn. In any case, it is generally better if at least one side of the conversation can be conducted diplomatically; why not be that side?

[QUOTE=Alan Carruth]
Assuming the bolt was really green, and had not dried out to speak of, that ought to work. The problem is there could well be small checks that you've missed. In that case, soaking the wood will make them seem to go away, but it won't magically make it mechanically sound. The checks will still be there, and will show up later. Better in that case to trim the end back past the checking and salvage what you can of sound wood. Having run into that scenario a few times, as I'm sure Rick has, I'd tend to go with the bird in the hand. [/QUOTE]

Al, I was never under any illusion that soaking in water would reverse the damage done and I agree that soaking could only be beneficial if the bolt were green. What was trying to get across when I first made mention of it was that hopefully, soaking would arrest the causation of further damage until better advise was at hand.

[QUOTE=Alan Carruth] As for your references to 'ol 40 grit' and other endearments, I'd appreciate it if you'd give it a rest. In any case, it is generally better if at least one side of the conversation can be conducted diplomatically; why not be that side? [/QUOTE]

Out of respect for you Al, and in an effort to take up your sage advise, I retract the 'ol 40 grit' comment. But as a parting note on the point of respect, it is only ever truly given to those who have earned it, never to those who demand it, your grace, wisdom, and respect for others clearly mark you as the former and as an indication of the respect I hold for you and most members on this list, I shall refrain saying any more on that topic

Cheers

Kim

[QUOTE=Alain Lambert] Oops forgot the pictures...

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"What do you think. "

Hi Alain....

You can cut this up for grins and the experience, but it looks like
firewood to me....

Wide, uneven graining that resides too close to the center of the tree are
the culprits....

Just my .02....

OK he is what I did:

I cut it in 2 no problem.
Split it 2 one of the half, smooth it with my No7 jointer plane and to the band saw!

Result: One nice wide grain (4 line per inch) board and a broken band saw shaft.

I put my 3/4" resaw blade on my Chinese 14" band saw crank the tension may be a bit higher than usual and voila!


I will put this in experience.

Note to self: Never do that again ! Buy from Shane.

Spruce you are right, I had seen the wide graining but was hoping to find some finer between once I cut.

Awe MANNNN!!!!! That sucks Alain, hopefully you can get parts. I too saw
the wide grain but if it is stiff it will work for guitars, you learn nothing until
you try, that is my thoughts anyway. Good luck fixing up the saw.

Shane

_________________
Canada

People says it all the time here that these small bandsaws are not tough enough for the wide blades.
Now I believe !

Shane, let me know when you have Lutz special again

Tuff luck Alain, we live and learn. Guess now you might want to try soaking that Chinese saw in a tub of water

Cheers

Kim

Oh man , Sorry to hear about the saw.

Hopefully you will keep an open mind and maybe give it a shot again some day. Next time you will be much more familiar with how to go about the process. You gave it a good go though, and cheers to you for the effort

Alain, don't run that big of a blade on that small of a saw it won't handle it.
Actually, the blade guys say that the blade won't handle it because they aren't made to bend that tight of a bend. (this comes from the guys as Sufolk)
Rather than try to get tops out of that board, what about brace wood. Looks like a lot of it to me.

The grain is very wide. Not sure it would make good braces.
I have painted both end, just in case, and leave it to dry until I repair my saw. It may very well crack and split itself in brace wood, by that time.

After that little mishap, I'd mill it into 4-piece tops and build with it just to
get revenge....       

Hey! this is a wide grain piece!
Is that any good?

I can get a replacement shaft for my saw from Busy-Bee. $15 + shipping. Not too bad.

CUT IT NOW!!

i have had alot of bolts and billits split, especially when mailed but tops seem to be bulletproof.

my advice anyhow.