Official Luthiers Forum!

[QUOTE=arvey]Michael, I might be interested in posting this or some form of it on my site and giving you credit. If I do I'd put a link to your site. What is your site address.[/QUOTE]

Arvey, you may be surprised to here this but I don't have a web site. Because I do this part time and only build 3-5 a year. So far I have worked solely by word of mouth and by going to wood craft shows and vendor fairs, in the western half of Texas. Truth be known 60% of my guitars have gone to musicians I know from my years playing the club circuits. The rest have been either though word of mouth from previous clients, the local music stores and client I have met at the wood craft and vendor fairs. Later this year I will be joining the Luthier’s Showcase. I guess I just have not wanted to go out into the big pond till I felt I had proved my self in my small and localized market. I am about ready though. But have a few things to get in order before I do.

For those of you that wish to use it feel free. I will post the updated text in about 2hrs. It would be honorable to recognize authorship however I don’t require it.
MichaelP38519.3889583333

michael-- is there something about the name -- i haven't got a web site either, nor any plans for one. would be just another thing i would have to work on that i don't feel i need.

Michael, you might want to check with Brock. It seems this material, though maybe expanded somewhat, would be perfect for the Luthier Showcase. If I get around to using it, I'll be sure and make sure your name is mentioned. Thanks.

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Don Atwood
Arlington, VA

Here it is the updated and grammer corrected virsion. I want to thank Mattia for his proof read. Your right Mattia, It is hard to proof read yourself



Do I want or can I afford a Hand Crafted Guitar?

     I am often asked this question by prospective clients. To be honest from a luthier’s point of view, this is a hard question to answer. Eventually, the client must answer it for themselve. Here are some of my thoughts on the matter from both a musician’s and luthier’s point of view.

•How seriously do you take your music and playing abilities?

If you are a semiprofessional or full time professional you already understand the importance of a fine crafted instrument. However if you are a personal pleasure player or an up-and-coming student you may have played only on a factory built instrument. In this case I would recommend you find some one with a hand-crafted instrument. Play it, compare its intonation, playability and tonal quality to a well crafted factory guitar. You are likely to find a world of differences.

•Does a factory built guitar provide you with the playability you are looking for?

If a factory built guitar fits your playing style to a “T”, then on this one point alone I have to say it will be much less expensive to buy a quality factory built guitar. However keep in mind that a factory built guitar is built following a pre-set tolerance set-up procedure. The sting height is set at factory specifications. Intonation is set within an acceptable tonic range. You can have the factories custom shop take the time to do a set-up for you at an additional charge or you can take your factory guitar to an experienced luthier and pay him to set it up. However any luthier worth his weight in saw dust will take the time to set a custom built guitar up to fit your preferences and set intonation to ideal tempered intonation. All as part of the standard package you commission.

•Can you find the size of guitar and the wood combinations you want in a factory guitar?

Factories build production model guitars. A set of standard tone wood combinations that they feel the general guitar playing public is looking for. This is a necessary evil of big business. And guitar factories are most certainly big business. They must be ultra efficient in material usage and acquisition. It is just not practical for factories to offer the end user the opportunity to choose the type or specific sets of tone wood to build with. Many factories do have a custom shop option available and will build to suit the client for a price. That price is typically equivalent to or higher than what a custom build luthier will ask.

•Do you want individualized appointments on your guitar?

To me this is one of the least important reasons to commission a hand crafted instrument.
However it is one of the most common reasons a player considers a commission. Once again many factories offer inlay and other appointments as options though their custom shops. Also there are many experienced luthiers that will provide this service after market. But it is always best to have these done during the building stage to avoid possible damage to your instrument.

•Are you buying this guitar for a temporary instrument or as a life time musical partner?

To me this is the big question. If you don’t know in your heart that you want and deserve a truly fine instrument, a musical partner that will be a keeper for a life time, then you probably are not ready to have a hand-crafted instrument built for you.

All custom build luthiers pour their time, sweat, muscle and heart into every instrument they build. Every guitar they build is like a child. No two are the same. Each has different characteristics that set them apart. The magic of a hand crafted instrument is in its details. A hand crafted instrument is a creature unattainable from a factory because a factory worker can not take the time to put their heart and soul into each stage of the instruments construction as the individual luthier does. There are exceptions to this statement. Some major producers like Collins and Larrivee, to mention only a couple, keep the tradition of quality luthierie alive and produce among the worlds fines guitars. Because of their dedication to the art of luthierie, I find it hard to call these companies factories. However this commitment to perfection is reflected in their prices. You will find their prices to be on par with those of the best custom builders.

•Can you afford a custom built guitar?

Budget restraints naturally are in play here. Keep in mind your not buying the standard production guitar. You are commissioning the birth of a life long friend and musical partner. Also keep in mind when you pay for the typical $3k hand-crafted guitar, the luthier that built it barely made minimum wage for his effort. I can tell you this as a matter of truth. “No luthier builds solely for the money. They ask for money solely so they can build.”

You will also need to pay a 75%-100% deposit up front, to get on the build schedule? This may seem to be an exorbitant deposit on an item you will not receive for several months to a year or more. This is required to protect the luthier and insure that you are very serious in you intentions concerning your commission. Keep in mind here that the luthier is building this guitar to your personal specifications. In many cases the luthier is ordering the tone-wood, inlay materials and hardware that are very specific to your requests alone. If for some reason you cancel the order after receipt of materials, while construction is in process or after completion, the luthier would have to complete the guitar and try to sell it to recoup material and labor cost. I can tell you, the odds are not good that the luthier would be able to move a guitar that was built to a customer's specifications.

My hope is that this has helped you determine one way or the other if a hand-crafted instrument is right for you.

Michael Payne
“One of a kind Hand-Crafted Guitars”
MichaelP38519.5091666667

Michael, this is a great pre-qualifier and marketing tool wrapped up in one package.

It rings of truth and sincerity, and should be very effective.

Couple of tiny typos that still squeeked through:

quality luthierie alive and produce among the worlds fines guitars.
(finest)

Keep in mind your not buying the standard production guitar.
(you are or you're)

You will also need to pay a 75%-100% deposit up front, to get on the build schedule?
(period)

I also probably overuse commas, but I usually put a comma after the word "However", and anywhere else I want the reader to take a breath.

Again, this is a very valuable tool. Thanks for sharing it!

Dennis

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Dennis Leahy
Duluth, MN, USA
7th Sense Multimedia

I like it Michael. It shifts the burden of rationalization back onto the potential customer. I am interested at the reaction you get with the 75 to 100 % deposit. That does seem like a high percentage for a deposit. If a person backs out and you sell the guitar to another customer, do you return the deposit to the original commissioner?

[QUOTE=Don A] Michael, you might want to check with Brock. It seems this material, though maybe expanded somewhat, would be perfect for the Luthier Showcase. If I get around to using it, I'll be sure and make sure your name is mentioned. Thanks. [/QUOTE]

Yeah, I would be into that. Also another document worth looking at to get some ideas from is one Ervin Somogyi handed out at ASIA. He had some good thoughts in there about the differences b/w custom built vs. factory built. A lot of it was to try to help the customer understand the difference in the economics.

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Brock Poling
Columbus, Ohio
http://www.polingguitars.com

[QUOTE=John Kinnaird] I like it Michael. It shifts the burden of rationalization back onto the potential customer. I am interested at the reaction you get with the 75 to 100 % deposit. That does seem like a high percentage for a deposit. If a person backs out and you sell the guitar to another customer, do you return the deposit to the original commissioner?[/QUOTE]

John, In my contracts I have a graduated deposit schedule. It is based on what I consider a conservitive time and material usage penalty. 98% of all the guitars I build are very custom design guitars that would be diffacult to sell whith out major re-work.

When I fist got started building I required only enough deposit to cover materials. Then I built one guitar that had the clients name inlaid on the top alone the curve of the lower bout. They never picked the guitar up and I lost labor and inlay material for that top plus had to replace the top to sell it. So now I require 75% up front. Mainly because I want to know that the client is as serious about buying the guitar as I am about building it. From what I can see most luthiers on the internet are requiring 80-100% to get on their schedule. I feel I off set the deposit by having a lower starting pirce based off IRW/Sitka model with just basic features.

How do you work your deposits John?

I am afraid to mention my deposit policy. It seems a little naieve (how do you spell that word). I charge $350 to hold a place in line, and then they pay the remainder up front when its done. I cash the check before the guitar ships, and if they don't like it I refund their money and when it re-sells I refund the deposit. If the guitar is very specialized then there are no returns.

So far I have had no one back out of a guitar once it has begun. I have had a person back out before the building began and I kept the deposit.

[QUOTE=John Kinnaird] I am afraid to mention my deposit policy. It seems a little naieve (how do you spell that word). I charge $350 to hold a place in line, and then they pay the remainder up front when its done. I cash the check before the guitar ships, and if they don't like it I refund their money and when it re-sells I refund the deposit. If the guitar is very specialized then there are no returns.

So far I have had no one back out of a guitar once it has begun. I have had a person back out before the building began and I kept the deposit.[/QUOTE]

I have had just two deposit returned. One was a soldier that did not make it back from Afganistan. His wife call and told me of the news. I was just in the very early stages. I returned 100% of his deposit despite his wife's insistance that I keep some. I finished the guitar and shipped it to his wife at no charge.

The other had to do with a divorce. I was well into the project but returned 80%. I will work with anyone that will honestly work with me.

[QUOTE=MichaelP]One was a soldier that did not make it back from Afganistan. His wife call and told me of the news. I was just in the very early stages. I returned 100% of his deposit despite his wife's insistance that I keep some. I finished the guitar and shipped it to his wife at no charge.[/QUOTE]

Michael,

Awesome!   

John Kinnard,
As a builder and a man you set a very high standard.
You deserve great sucess.

My contribution was nothing special, he was the one that gave the ultimate sacrifice for his country.

I knew this young man since he was 14. I spent many hours in my back yard teaching him the works of Fogelberg and Denver as he taught me Coldplay and Nirvana.

All I did was deal with my grieving by making saw dust and gave the remaining wood to his wife Judy.