Official Luthiers Forum!

$100, spread over the life of the player, or the life of the guitar, is nothing. What are we talking of here, $2 per year? Two bucks for smoother, nicer tuning. Every time I pick up a guitar, at least one string needs a little tweak. To me, it's worth two measly bucks a year to have smooth, consistent operation, and to know that no better machine is available.

If you build for yourself, then you can decide if they're worth it or not. If you're a serious enough player, or simply someone who enjoys a quality, well made product, then there's no question. If you're the type who just doesn't notice, then go ahead and pocket the difference, and use the cheaper ones.

As for selling guitars, do you not owe it to your clients to use the best? Factories need to go cheap; hand made instruments should not cheap out on important items, in my opinion. Leave the factories build the economical guitars, because you cannot compete with their numbers. Where you can compete is by putting out a better, higher quality product, in sound, playability, and hardware.

Besides, over the life of the guitar, the Waverly machines will be more economical; they will outlast all others by more than the factor of the cost difference, all the while being pleasing to use.

Richard, I'm surprised we're even having this conversation: you admit to having a pro client having trouble while on the road; don't you see where the value of the better machines is? Keep in mind that this pro player is also showing the guitar to other professionals, and these folks know a Waverly from a Grover, trust me. They see a cheap tuner, and the entire instrument suddenly loses value to their eyes. Where else did he cut a corner, they wonder?

This should not even be an extra cost option; just raise your prices $100 across the line next time you raise them, and forget about it. It will pay dividends forever. Keep using the cheap way out, and you'll always be seen as second tier. Your work deserves to be viewed as top tier, my friends.

I'm with Mario 100%.

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Instagram: @jfrenchluthier
Web: https://www.jfrenchguitars.com/

I'm a 'Marionette' as well. Many are willing to shell out hundreds of dollars on a BRW or African Blackwood B&S set that tonally (If were being honest) is as near as makes no difference the same as a much cheaper IRW set, purely on the basis of cosmetics. It's musical instrument we are trying to build and for that playability is, with sound, the big deal. I only use Waverly tuners because they are the most reliable I have found, To me it would be false econony to use anything else. If a customer is willing to pay $2500 for a guitar I'm sure a move to $2600 won't put him off, and the use of the top level tuner shows that your serious about quality.

Mario is again, as usual, right in every aspect.

Colin

PS I have a set of Rodgers tuners sitting in a box on my shelf waiting for "The Guitar", now a $1000 uplift might put them off!

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I don't believe in anything, I simply make use of a set of reasonable working hypotheses.

Your point well taken Mario. It is true that the First set of Gold Waverlys' that went bad on me were On a guitar built for a professional touring musician and a very high profile lady in the area of blues(Rita Chiarelli). I caught it right when it was starting so it didn't cause her problems but if it had gone on tour it would have been a real embaressment. Just a week befor Colin James had borrowed that guitar to play a set when his guitar had been misplaced before a concert. so it is getting passed around. Again Mario, you are right and I am trying to be cheap.

richard, aren't you referring to gold grovers?

OOps Yes I mean the Gold Grovers, Never had a problem with Waverlys. I'll just blame that on my dyslexia.

Of Course we have one slightly floored, we are assuming that Waverleys are always produced to perfection.

To be honest if you compare the two side by side from a critical point of view, you are paying 90% of the premium for the brand name alone.

Now put them both along side a set of Rodgers Tuners, now these are in a different league, but of course you have to a) get them b) be prepared to pay for them.

we are assuming that Waverleys are always produced to perfection.

Well, in about 100 sets(600 machines), I've not had any bad ones, and in 9 year's use, only two individual machines have had a bearing come loose, fixed in a minute with the little wrench that Stew Mac will supply to those who need it.

dang good track record in my book.

An absolute bargain.

Listen, some folks are perfectly happy with the $25 faucet in the bathroom. The one that needs new O-rings every couple years, the one who's 'chrome" peels after 5 years. Then there are those who see the value in the $75 faucet. Yes, it does the same, exact job as the $25 one, in that you turn the knob, you get water. But the expensive one has a gasketless system that doesn't wear out and cause a drip-drip every couple years, and it has a durable finish. Then there's the thing that is hard to put in words, and that is the feel; every time you ask for water, you touch a well made, well desined lever/knob, one that works so nicely and effortlessly, its like magic. The cheap one feels like you're using a garden hose valve...

Some folks won't notice, and be perfectly happy with the garden hose feel. Others will really appreciate the refined one. Same with cars, tires, even the door entry sytem to your home. Some folks are happy with the cheapest, scratchy feeling, door knob available, while others will spend the extra hundred bucks for the ball bearing'd, smooth-as-silk sentry system. Vive La Difference!

And don't forget that when you're not there to speak for yourself, your instruments will do the talking for you. I'd rather mine say "my builder cared enough to spend the extra time and dollars to use the best available", rather than it saying "my builder used these because they cost less".

Thanks Mario

I am not saying that there is no Value to Waverley Tunners, all I am saying is that Grover, Gotoh etc ,can offer a suitable altenative in some scenarios, your experience has been good with Waverleys, but others have had great experiences with other tuners.

Taken to its extreme, I would use nothing but Rodgers tuners, but maybe in that case the premium is too much and more than the customer is willing to pay.

Don't get me wrong I use Waverleys myself, I like them, but if someone comes to me with a budget, then I have to work within that, and I would rather spend more on say the top than on a set of tuners that add very little to the finished product.

Guess it is another case of horses for courses. RussellR38661.5446180556

I so agree with you Mario. Waverlys are well worth the money. I just think that these high end touches are what separates what we do from what you can buy everyday at guitar center.

We will chase good wood to the ends of the earth (literally) but cheap out on the hardware that will make the instrument play in tune?

I understand the silliness of simply buying a brand name, but in this case I think the brand's reputation is very well deserved.

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Brock Poling
Columbus, Ohio
http://www.polingguitars.com

Brock

I am not suggesting that we use tuners that don't perform the function, all I am saying is you get the Gotoh and Grover tuners at their best then they are doing just as good a job as the Waverleys.

I love the Waverlys!!!
I made a brazilian/red spruce-"45 style" parlor guitar a couple of years ago and used the Waverlys with real mother of pearl knobs.It seemed to be the only machine that would do that guitar"justice".
For some reason it seems they only offer the black mop knobs now.

Some of you are quite accomplished and evidently sell lots of guitars. For those of us starting out and giving away everything at a bargain or for free to kids and friends, it is a different issue. I'm sure the Waverly's are great. However, I like the option of taking off the Waverly's and slapping on a set of Gotoh's with the same footprint if it turns out to be a give me. That gives them the option of an easy upgrade on their own nickel. I figure I've already donated the wood and labor, why should I up my losses by giving away top of the line tuners. It would be nice to always use Waverly's but I'm not to that point yet and for that matter may never be.    

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Don Atwood
Arlington, VA

For sure, Don, the cheaper ones have their place, exactly as you state.

My rant, such as it was, was directed at those of us who sell, and some here are about ready to 'break out', and I truly believe it is to their advantage if I can make them see the value of the better hardware.

Don, it's time to raise prices; at least to where you are only giving away
the labor.

Vive La Difference

There you go, Frenchifying on us poor monoglots.

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Howard Klepper
http://www.klepperguitars.com

When all else fails, clean the shop.

Hi Guys!!
I too have had problems just recently with Grover V-97 Gold open backs.
I sent an email to Grover and they requested me to reurn the bad ones. Then they replaced the two that were loose.

The nickel versions are just fine. They seem to be more positive and tighter than the Gold.
Perhaps we should let them know that we are aware of the problem...just maybe they will fix it.

Thanks,
Walter

I built my first guitar from a kit last year - it came with Gotoh tuners. Functional, but... I bought a Collings D-2H this summer with Waverly tuners. All my builds from here on out will have Waverlys...

-Mark

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Pullman, WA

The more I know, the more I know I don't know.

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