Official Luthiers Forum!

Hi Folks,
I'm sorry I don't get in more. I've just been too busy for much extra time in cyberspace. Yes, I'm pretty busy with building, but we've also got some family stuff going. My wife and I are a sandwich family. I'm 54 with an 11 year old; and we are also taking care of the older folks as things are getting rough in that direction.

But enough of that! I wanted to get back with an update for you. A couple of weeks ago I was looking for mastergrade Engelmann. All normal sources were depleted, and I was asking if any of you had ever ordered any from Griz.

Many of you recommended Ed Dick's engelmann. I went to his site but he was out of master grade. So I nervously orderd one set from Griz. I'm starting to pinch pennies more and more these days.


It came and it's probably the finest Engelmann I've ever seen. Snow white, great stifness, and very tight/straight grain. Sounds great to the tap.

The only problem is something I would expect from a huge company - I had a hard time finding someone there who was familiar with the wood and knew what good wood was all about. I left a message with them and a guy called me back three days later. He said it was great. He was right.

Just wanted to give a report.

Thanks for the update Gerald. I haven't bought any soundboards from them but the EIR and Bubinga have been very nice. I hope they keep on expanding their selection of luthier supplies.

_________________
Don Atwood
Arlington, VA

Thanks Gerald, good report, that Grizzly guy's got it going on.

great i am going to order some of the engleman, cedar and sitka next week

    I am fortunate in that I live close to and do go to Grizzly on a regular basis. There wood is very decent but I agree they need more training in the sales dept. I use alot of thier tools and have been since the 70's when they first opened in Williamsport PA.
    You will also find they are good at customer service. If I sound like a comercial well thanks. I know Shiraz through email and a few business transactions. They are a customer based company and I am pleased to speak well of them.
    I don't buy much wood there as I import alot of my own but the wood I seen there is very nice. They also have killer maple. The bindings and perflings they have a great as they have the old style fiber bindings not that boltoron platic. It is nice to have the options and feel free to get that catalog.
John Hall
Blues Creek Guitars

John, I'm withing driving distance of the PA grizzly. Would you recommend it for a trip? i.e., would there be 100+ master grade tops I could sort through, etc.

I am sure that the Grizzly tops are good but a highly doubt that that are master quality. If master tops are the finest there is then the chances of finding 100 is very low.

Having said that, the grading of tonewoods is highly subjective and there is no consistent way to grade tonewoods. The appearance is just one component that needs to be considered when choosing tonewoods. There are Torres guitars that have 3 and 4 piece tops, Stravarius violins that have tops in which the wood is wide grained and blue stained. To those great makers, what drove their choice was to pick the piece that was the best based on sound first, size next and appearance last.

In a world of diminishing supply we need to take these things into consideration as old growth woods are a precious resource and are rapidly being depleted. We are the ones that set our customers expectations as to what denotes quality. Wood is an imperfect material and always has variations which is part of what makes it attractive as a natural material.

There is a place for "Master" grade materials but even the large manufacturers compromise when building by "settling" for AA/AAA quality tops. I have rarely found a top that meets what I am looking for as a "master" grade top without looking/feeling/hearing it myself or at least trusting that the supplier understand what criteria I am looking for in a top.

The tops I have bought from Grizzly have been consistent and very nice but have not been what I would consider "master" grade tops. The more important thing is to find a vendor/vendors whose supply and quality meets your needs at a value that is proportionate to the price that you are looking to spend.

If you are looking to buy a quantity of any material, I would consider looking for AAA and reserving "master" grade for your finest instruments.

To put in another good word for Ed Dick of AC Woods ( sponsor listed above), the batches of tops I have bought from him as AAA as good or better than what I have bought from other sources as "master" grade. Ed works and buys from Timber Tonewood which supplies 400,000 tops a year to large manufacturers. Because Ed has access to so much material, his grading is if anything conservative so when he says a top is close to master, it doesnt get much better.

What most production shops do is buy lots of tops and then when they go to build search for the best from their stash that is appropriate for the quality/price of the instrument being built. They then just keeping on backfilling tops to the stash but always draw from what is on hand for the next guitar or set of guitars.

Hi Shawn
     To ne honest , the master grade at grizzly is master grade. It is obvious you wern;t there yet to see the product. This guy buys alot of tops. The sales people are nice but the staff sell tools and the luthier stuff is something the boss likes.
     The sales staff could use a little education on luthier woods but the quality is there from what I have had my hands on
John Hall
The Muncy store in PA is the one I go to

    They have the wood in the warehouse but if you don't like what you see they will bring stuff to you till you like what you get. They used to stock the stuff out on the floor but the handeling got rough and ruined alot.
    They have it in the back and keep in under wraps from the public. The place is worth the trip. They even have a resturant in the place.
     It is at the lycoming mall

To clarify, I have not been to their stores and have only bought mailorder and of their top woods I only bought Englemann. The first order it was exceptional and surprised me how nice it was. The second time the quality was very good but less so than the first.

One of the things that was impressive was that the orders were very fast and packed expertly.

I look forward to visiting one of their stores. Thanks for the info.

I've heard that bearclaw figure in a spruce set usually indicates that the wood will help make a good soundboard. Is this true or pure myth? I realize there are other factors, including stiffness, etc. I went with this set for an upcoming flamenco negra because it is stiff, exhibits no run-out between each blank and has bearclaw figuration:







SonicAgamemnon38402.6933333333

Sonic, I can't say for fact, but I'm betting it is just a myth. Bearclaw was hardly ever used in the past with all the old vintage guitars using plain tops. In fact if I remember correctly, most bearclaw was rejected. Kind of the same situation with BZ rosewood use in the past (quarter sawn and straight grain) versus now (flat sawn and stumpwood). If there had been any reason that bearclaw was superior, they would have been using it. I think it is more related to changing market acceptance. Doesn't mean it won't make a great guitar though as each set of wood must be evaluated on its own merit and built with accordingly. It can make a beautiful guitar and I believe one of John Kinnaird's latest creations had a bearclaw top.

_________________
Don Atwood
Arlington, VA

Don, your historical perspective is very persuasive. If bearclaw had some magic influence on tone quality, the correlation would have been recognized early on, and there should be many more past examples available today. Its inherent rarity could also partially explain why there aren't as many vintage bearclaw examples in circulation...

I have bearclaw sitka from two sources. Both are weaker than similar plain sitka, across the grain. Some I have from Alaska seems downright rubbery, across the grain.

Talking with the second wood dealer out of Vancouver BC he agreed and felt bearclaw was generally a weaker top overall.

However, the piece you have showing is absolutely marvelous, very Sitka-ish and light reflective. Where'd you come by that?

The bearclaw is a visualy striking top. It was considered a low quality top in the past but the visuals are mind blowing.
   I don't think a bear claw top is better than a fine straight grained top. The claw is usually from a damaged or sick tree.
   I still love to see it and I do use it when I can. It is now used as a dressing in higher end guitars.
John Hall

This set originated in Northern Colorado. Although impossible to verify, the timber yard indicated it came from the largest tree felled in 50 years. The log was hand-split and dried, eventually cut into hundreds of sets-- a very old tree, which occasionally produces this rare and exquisite bear claw pattern.

This set will be used for my flamenco negra guitar, code name "poca loca". Sitka wasn't an option. It was sheer torture deciding whether to go with traditional Euro spruce, unfigured or bearclaw Engelmann. After picking through everything, I selected two sets from each category. I then ranked them in terms of stiffness, run-out and grain quality. All six were strong sets, but some had just a little run-out or a slight cosmetic imperfection. I decided to take a chance with the flamenco and go with the crazy figuration! I reserved two other Engelmann sets (without bearclaw) for an upcoming double top classical...