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I think that's what it's called.

When I did my first fretboard I installed the frets before gluing the fretboard to the neck causing a large backbow in the fret board that was transfered to the neck (It is just now relieving itself).

This time I glued the fretboard to the neck first, put a little backbow in with the truss rod, leveled, THEN installed the frets and ended up with a VERY flat neck except, of course, for the last, unsupported frets. LOTS of bow in the last fret area.

I've seen all the great ideas that include supporting that last area and truly understand the logic but what are some options at this point to alleviate that bow before or during neck installation?


Thanks
LarryLarryH38767.5543634259

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It's only a hump if the fretboard 'humps' on installation. Right now, it's only a dropoff caused by compression by the fret tangs. How easily can it get 'pushed' into the right position?

Hesh,

You mean pushing them in with fret installing pliers instead of hammering them in?

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Joe Beaver
Maker of Sawdust

[QUOTE=Mattia Valente] It's only a hump if the fretboard 'humps' on installation. Right now, it's only a dropoff caused by compression by the fret tangs. How easily can it get 'pushed' into the right position?[/QUOTE]

Not too bad Mattia. That's what I'm thinking is that upon install I can make sure it gets as flat as possible on the body.

Thanks

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[QUOTE=Hesh1956] I get that every time also and if it is not to bad, yours does not look to bad from here, it will straighten on on neck installation.

Also, I recently started pressing my frets and found that there was far less compression and a much straighter fret board.[/QUOTE]

Thanks Hesh, I'm just so gun shy about the fretboard after my last guitar which came close to being unplayable with the back bow.

Pressing the frets seems like such a luxury and I suppose it could be done after the entire fretboard is installed and leveled - again what a luxurious concept. The hammering thing is such a grind and I can't imagine how one would hammer in those last frets AFTER Neck install.

Thanks again,

Larry

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I'm a strong advocate of not even thinking about installing frets until after
the instrument is completely assembled, and the fingerboard then
leveled. I believe it is the only way a small builder can expect to
consistantly achieve a perfect surface to install the frets on. You can dress
the fret surface level after it's done, but I think it's better to level the
fretboard.

There are certainly builders who install frets before completion with
excellent results, but it takes work to get there.. A lot of bugs usually
have to be worked out of the process over the course of building a lot of
guitars, and fine tuning your jigs, fixtures and procedures to achieve this
consistancy.

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Eschew obfuscation, espouse elucidation.

Taylor's NT neck is designed specifically to address the 14th fret hump.
So, the combination of the frets bowing the fretboard down (due to no support underneath) past the 14th fret combined with the neck meeting the body at something besides a 0 angle is the main cause. I had relative success with squishing the tangs on fretwire above 14 to produce less bow (used some CA for insurance). I also pressed the frets in instead of hammering (actually pressed all my frets in - seemed much more controllable and less violent).
Ultimately, even a master builder like Taylor was frustrated enough by the 14th fret hump to design a completely different style neck join...

I've only completed one guitar so most folks here can ignore me, but.. I use mortise & tenon bolt on, ala Cumpiano. I used the extension support that Cumpiano shows, and I pressed all my frets in on the drill press. I had absolutely zero bowing of the extension. I mounted the neck with fb before fretting and levelled, then I mounted the neck again after fretting to check and relevel frets, if needed.   

Ron

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OLD MAN formerly (and formally) known as:

Ron Wisdom

Somewhere in the middle of Arkansas......

On my last two builds I used Sylvan Wells system of leveling the FB after assembly. It seems a bit scary to be putting the frets in after the instrument is finished & buffed out, but it's not a really big deal. The last two boards required little or no fret levelling & there's not a hint of hump at the body joint.
I changed the way I build my motice block on the last two also... After completing the mortice & tennon I clamp the morticed block onto the neck slightly proud of the top neck surface & plane the top of the mortice block to line up with the neck angle. (The tennon & mortice block get drilled for the hardware after this step)
Once the rim assembly is completed, a light sanding in the dish gets everything in the right plane.
These two changes in technique seem to have completely eliminated the hump issue.
I also oversize the fret slots in the FB extension & glue the frets in with white glue to prevent excessive back bow.
One more way to skin that durned cat.
Is "durned" OK Lance???)Daniel M38767.7453587963

[QUOTE=David Collins] I'm a strong advocate of not even thinking about installing frets until after
the instrument is completely assembled, and the fingerboard then
leveled. I believe it is the only way a small builder can expect to
consistantly achieve a perfect surface to install the frets on. You can dress
the fret surface level after it's done, but I think it's better to level the
fretboard.[/QUOTE]

Seems ideal to me David to install frets after leveling the fret board. Sometimes us beginners are faced with circumstances and realitys that need to be solved with a few less tools and techniques.

On my first build I used a technique I will not use again and on my next build I will think about installing frets after the FB is installed and leveled. For now I must solve the real dilemma facing this install.

It seems it will not be that hard to get it close but the downside is really a bummer.

How do you install frets on an installed and leveled fretboard? A press of some sort? A drill press?

Very interested.

Larry

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[QUOTE=old man] ....and I pressed all my frets in on the drill press.Ron[/QUOTE]

Do you have a link or technique describing using a drill press to install frets with a little more detail?

Larry

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Sometimes I press, but I usually still use a hammer. There's nothing fancy
at all about it, and hammering is how frets have been put in for a long
time. Some people use a bag of lead shot under the neck, I personally
have a big block of brass with leather padding. And now I have the luxury
of a Taylor fret buck to support the extension, but for years I did fine just
supporting the top with another chunk of brass in my hand through the
soundhole.

I suppose since I've spent more of my career in repair rather than building
this has always seemed like the natural way to install frets. I should also
mention that with all the small shops and individual builders who brought
thier guitars in to consign at Elderly's while I was there, the body joint
hump was one of the more common problems I saw.

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Eschew obfuscation, espouse elucidation.

Larry, you just need the fret press caul and insert from Stew-Mac. A lot of the guys here use it.

I think the biggest advantage to the press is there's no way to dent the fb and the tops of the frets. And, fretting away from the body means no chance to damage the top. I put a drop of water and a dab of titebond in each slot then pressed the fret in. Very smooth, fast, no damage at all, and no loose ends. Could have been beginners luck, but I don't think so.

press caul

NO hump, NO bowing. Just make sure your fret slots are sized correctly for the frets you're using.

Ron old man38767.8182060185

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OLD MAN formerly (and formally) known as:

Ron Wisdom

Somewhere in the middle of Arkansas......

Amazingly helpful as usual. My mind just opened to a bunch of new methods and ideas. Previously couldn't imagine how to get frets on 14+ (and of course who needs them anyway) AFTER installtion, now I have 4 or 5 great ideas - for my next build.

Thanks so very much to everyone

Larry

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This may answer some questions -

Fretting photo essayTim McKnight38767.8609837963

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tim...
http://www.mcknightguitars.com

[QUOTE=Tim McKnight] This may answer some questions -

Fretting photo essay[/QUOTE]

It may indeed - just finished reading EVERY word.

Thank you

Larry

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Very good essay Tim. I would add that I really only switched to the Taylor
fret buck because one kind of fell in my lap for next to nothing. The block
of mass under the extension was quite comfortable for me, but the fret
buck is kind of a guilty pleasure by holding the mass for me. Your
tools and method look very similar to mine.

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Eschew obfuscation, espouse elucidation.

Fell in your lap?! Ouch! See my thread, "I'm not happy with my nuts"....

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Ron

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OLD MAN formerly (and formally) known as:

Ron Wisdom

Somewhere in the middle of Arkansas......